Russia repositions border taking over more of Georgia overnight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SOUTH WEST
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Possibly if we had honoured our promise to the Ukraine along with the US after we persuaded them to give up their former soviet owned WMD's that we would back them up in the event of any aggression towards them then perhaps we would not be reading these stories of 'soviet border creep' here there and everywhere, that was dispicable, so much for the British 'my word is my bond'. (ex UK Forces and embarrased )
@crackling jet: that's a sore point, no question. A whole bunch of Powers got around a table and agreed to something. It seemed politically expedient at the time, apparently, with the fears of the nukes based in the Ukraine needing to be accounted for ... and doubtless other reasons.
Politics is always about expedients, isn't it? The various historical quotes about scraps of paper don't look to have been wrong.
Politics is always about expedients, isn't it? The various historical quotes about scraps of paper don't look to have been wrong.
The problem is, how far do we go?
How far is Putting wishing to go?
Fighting Saddam's army in 2003, the insurgency afterwards and the Taliban in Afghanistan has in no way prepared us for fighting a well equipped and trained Force, all without having the luxury of air supremacy.
Oh, and they have nukes.
IMHO, we are heading for a slightly warmer cold war hoping that we don't blink first.
How far is Putting wishing to go?
Fighting Saddam's army in 2003, the insurgency afterwards and the Taliban in Afghanistan has in no way prepared us for fighting a well equipped and trained Force, all without having the luxury of air supremacy.
Oh, and they have nukes.
IMHO, we are heading for a slightly warmer cold war hoping that we don't blink first.
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: scotland
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Russia repositions border taking over more of Georgia overnight
MPN 11 "Russia just keeps nibbling away at territories on their borders"
Maybe Comrade Putin sees things differently,maybe the so called nibbling is a full blown feast from the west! Albania,Bulgaria,Czechoslovakia,East Germany,Hungary,Poland,Romania to mention but a few.
Maybe Comrade Putin sees things differently,maybe the so called nibbling is a full blown feast from the west! Albania,Bulgaria,Czechoslovakia,East Germany,Hungary,Poland,Romania to mention but a few.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,807
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
ericsson16 ... good point.
Yup, we do rather tend to look at things from our own perspectives, create the demonic image of Putin and ... rattle our pieces of paper.
From his POV there are undoubtedly different concerns, including the "Russia is surrounded by enemies" syndrome.
However, one had hoped that in the 21st C. we had all grown out of this sort of behaviour, and that's what worries me.
Good discussion, though ... some interesting points of view!
"Russia just keeps nibbling away at territories on their borders"
Maybe Comrade Putin sees things differently, maybe the so called nibbling is a full blown feast from the west! Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania to mention but a few.
Maybe Comrade Putin sees things differently, maybe the so called nibbling is a full blown feast from the west! Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania to mention but a few.
From his POV there are undoubtedly different concerns, including the "Russia is surrounded by enemies" syndrome.
However, one had hoped that in the 21st C. we had all grown out of this sort of behaviour, and that's what worries me.
Good discussion, though ... some interesting points of view!
Just because Putin feels justified in his actions doesn't make them right. The German nation (well the greater part of it) felt Hitler justified in his actions, the justification being the Versailles Treaty for the most part. That support only really faltered when his success did.
I think that much the same goes for Putin. He is a chancer like Hitler, and will only come a cropper when he takes one chance too many. We have a vested interest in seeing that happen sooner rather than later.
BTW, how many p's are there in appeasement again?
I think that much the same goes for Putin. He is a chancer like Hitler, and will only come a cropper when he takes one chance too many. We have a vested interest in seeing that happen sooner rather than later.
BTW, how many p's are there in appeasement again?
Chug:
Hitler's main problem was his strategic decision making in 1941, when he helped Mussolini and attacked Russia within months of each other.
In my view he should have finished the Greek and Balkan campaigns off first, sat tight in the desert and up armed for a move into Russia in 1942 or even 1943. The Whermacht was still to a very great extent a horse drawn army. Time would have allowed his divisions to be mechanically re-equipped. The other factor was that he went too late in the year and did not plan or even contemplate a Russian winter.
But today, we now have Putin as you say nibbling away at the western states and Turkey is slowly becoming embroiled with border incursions from Syria. Remembering Turkey has invoked Article 4 of the NATO Treaty. None of the NATO forces have the resources to fight one war let alone two. We lack resources such as material and manpower and outright will to get involved in Eastern Europe. We also do not have across Europe the political 'balls' either. The last 35 years of downsizing and so called peace dividends could be just about to bite us very severely in the backside and there is SFA we can do about it.
Putin as you put it maybe a 'chancer' but he's a very astute chancer.
Hitler's main problem was his strategic decision making in 1941, when he helped Mussolini and attacked Russia within months of each other.
In my view he should have finished the Greek and Balkan campaigns off first, sat tight in the desert and up armed for a move into Russia in 1942 or even 1943. The Whermacht was still to a very great extent a horse drawn army. Time would have allowed his divisions to be mechanically re-equipped. The other factor was that he went too late in the year and did not plan or even contemplate a Russian winter.
But today, we now have Putin as you say nibbling away at the western states and Turkey is slowly becoming embroiled with border incursions from Syria. Remembering Turkey has invoked Article 4 of the NATO Treaty. None of the NATO forces have the resources to fight one war let alone two. We lack resources such as material and manpower and outright will to get involved in Eastern Europe. We also do not have across Europe the political 'balls' either. The last 35 years of downsizing and so called peace dividends could be just about to bite us very severely in the backside and there is SFA we can do about it.
Putin as you put it maybe a 'chancer' but he's a very astute chancer.
сочувствие comrades сочувствие!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth Western Australia
Age: 57
Posts: 808
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, lets just escalate it into a global conflict. Just what the world needs
Neither Putin or China is ready to engage the west militarily at this moment, if there is a chance it could escalate, there is to much to loose.
The chances are that won't always be the case. Plonking troops in a friendly country and having a defense pact is perfectly legal. The moment that happens, all those Russian volunteers will put on official insignia and will result in a stand of. The Russians will then be responsible for enforcing the peace in their areas.
At the moment we are pouring billions into those countries for nothing. Start playing Putin at his own game and using our brain.
Some people just can't let go of the old Commie USSR Cold War, can they?
Then again, your words are easily said for someone who knows that they'll never be called upon to pick up a rifle to defend them..
air pig:-
Well, we could start by stopping that downsizing and start rearming instead. As you say, Eastern Europe is a far off place of which we know little, but better to draw the line in the sand there now, before Putin is compelled to react to an unprovoked Polish attack upon one of his radio stations.
Putin can't afford to rearm either, but he is doing so anyway. The party is over I'm afraid. If you want peace prepare for war! You heard it here first. No? Well, it's as well to repeat it anyway...
The last 35 years of downsizing and so called peace dividends could be just about to bite us very severely in the backside and there is SFA we can do about it.
Putin can't afford to rearm either, but he is doing so anyway. The party is over I'm afraid. If you want peace prepare for war! You heard it here first. No? Well, it's as well to repeat it anyway...
Vlad is powerful but he isn't Stalin, too many people in Russia with too many millions/billions in or invested in the west for one single madman to put all that at risk.
A few steps to 'restore some pride to mother Russia yes I can see the meritocracy /corruptocracy ' behind Putin tolerating but anything bigger and -Dammit Dmitri I wont be able to go to St Tropez on holiday attitudes ' will see his days numbered'
A few steps to 'restore some pride to mother Russia yes I can see the meritocracy /corruptocracy ' behind Putin tolerating but anything bigger and -Dammit Dmitri I wont be able to go to St Tropez on holiday attitudes ' will see his days numbered'
Chugs:
Eastern Europe is now far better known after hen and stag parties, just they can't remember being there. Unfortunately the politicians since the fall of the Wall have forgotten that adage and I suspect have no idea or even read the works of Sun Tzu, but I bet Putin has. As for spending more money, that ain't going to happen, unless you slash the aid budget to zero and as you are aware weapons manufacture is these day a long term thing, not easy as building Spitfires and Mosquito's was in the past.
Putin had cleverly covered his rear door by coming to accords with the Chinese, who own a very large slice of the deficit in the USA and a fair percentage of Africa. Russia still believes in the Mother Russia as the embodiment of the state.
Pax britanica:
Putin is an old Chekist and not afraid to use old Chekist methods, as Mr Litvinenko found out. Having seen a video of the tax man calling, I suspect that such methods would not trouble Vlad if he had to use them again. Some pirates off the African east coast found out as did some gentlemen in Lebanon in the past, don't poke the bear and complain when he rips your arm off. If Vlad so wished he could start conscription again and call up his opponents into the army and sequester their assets, not a problem if you are an elected dictator and the older generation in Russia would support him.
As you say, Eastern Europe is a far off place of which we know little, but better to draw the line in the sand there now, before Putin is compelled to react to an unprovoked Polish attack upon one of his radio stations.
Putin had cleverly covered his rear door by coming to accords with the Chinese, who own a very large slice of the deficit in the USA and a fair percentage of Africa. Russia still believes in the Mother Russia as the embodiment of the state.
Pax britanica:
A few steps to 'restore some pride to mother Russia yes I can see the meritocracy /corruptocracy ' behind Putin tolerating but anything bigger and -Dammit Dmitri I wont be able to go to St Tropez on holiday attitudes ' will see his days numbered'
air pig:-
So all the more reason for getting started now. Waiting around for his next move, and the one after that, plays straight into Putin's hand.
The good Lord helps those who help themselves. It was a close enough thing last time we played the 10 year rule, this time we'll be lucky if we get 10 months warning of the coming war.
pb:-
In much the same way as German industrialists and bankers were going to control the little Corporal? I shouldn't count on it if I were you.
weapons manufacture is these day a long term thing, not easy as building Spitfires and Mosquito's was in the past.
The good Lord helps those who help themselves. It was a close enough thing last time we played the 10 year rule, this time we'll be lucky if we get 10 months warning of the coming war.
pb:-
Vlad is powerful but he isn't Stalin, too many people in Russia with too many millions/billions in or invested in the west for one single madman to put all that at risk.
weapons manufacture is these day a long term thing, not easy as building Spitfires and Mosquito's was in the past.
So an engine might be a thing you want to keep developing as a continuous effort because it is an enabler for various different possible aircraft.
I suggest that the software might be similar - not easy to do in a hurry.
t43562: I did say manufacture and not development. Indeed the Merlin engine did have development difficulties.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,807
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Originally Posted by air pig
Hitler's main problem was his strategic decision making in 1941, when he helped Mussolini and attacked Russia within months of each other.
Similarly, war material production continued in parallel with extensive domestic production, so that Gerta would never have a problem getting a new sewing machine or kettle.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]Vlad is powerful but he isn't Stalin, too many people in Russia with too many millions/billions in or invested in the west for one single madman to put all that at risk.[/QUOTE
I hafta wonder about that. The industrialists in 1930s Germany had too much invested in their industries to allow "one single madman to put all that at risk," and yet "a single madman" was essentially responsible for the near complete destruction of Germany. The same can be said of Italy. And Japan. History seems to show that a highly ambitious political leader with near unlimited power can roll over even the high and mighty in the corporate realms of his nation.
And it seems that it is that highly concentrated power that is corrupting of the nation and the individual. Ensuring governmental power is spread out, although very inefficient, seems to be the only way to prevent a single madman from (ultimately) embroiling nations in war.
I hafta wonder about that. The industrialists in 1930s Germany had too much invested in their industries to allow "one single madman to put all that at risk," and yet "a single madman" was essentially responsible for the near complete destruction of Germany. The same can be said of Italy. And Japan. History seems to show that a highly ambitious political leader with near unlimited power can roll over even the high and mighty in the corporate realms of his nation.
And it seems that it is that highly concentrated power that is corrupting of the nation and the individual. Ensuring governmental power is spread out, although very inefficient, seems to be the only way to prevent a single madman from (ultimately) embroiling nations in war.
Last edited by KenV; 11th Aug 2015 at 13:03.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK on a crosswind
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no parallel between Putin's Russia and Hitler's Nazi party. Putin wants to rebuild Russia as it was, no more than that. If he wants the Ukraine - let him have it, if he wants a route to the south Baltic, let him have it. I see no reason for us to get our petticoats in a bunch about any of this. His overflights of our area of self interest are in my view, nothing but warning not to interfere. And in my view, neither we should. I certainly would not station any troops or aircraft in any of those places. Anyone who has studied Putin could pretty well draw a line where he will stop and not go further. The Ukraine held much of the old USSR's heavy industry and he wants that back. It is historically Russian anyway. Certainly not worth our fighting for.
Last edited by Royalistflyer; 11th Aug 2015 at 15:22.