Low Cost Combat Aircraft - are they really feasible ?
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Very relevant debate. It may be apocryphal but someone said that if current R&D and military budget trends continue even the USAF will only be able to afford to acquire a single aircraft by the middle of the century! There needs to be the same kind of R&D cost paradigm shift that there has been in personal electronics. Interesting to note that Airbus has just opened a facility in Silicon Valley with a view to absorbing some of this low cost, thinking outside the box, culture.
The Scorpion is a good example of what can be done and while it's hardly "low cost", it's R&D budget compared to that of e.g. the F35's would be barely measurable. Someone else once said that, not necessarily just with respect to aircraft, if you are prepared to settle for 90% of the capability you can get it for a fraction of the cost and therefore afford many more units. After all one aircraft/ship/tank can only be in one place at a time.
Using latest off-the-shelf computing technology both for design and operational capability plus Scaled Composite / Skunk Works-style rapid prototyping, could surely produce something far more cost-effective than the current turgid, inflexible, military-industrial vested-interest complex manages?
The Scorpion is a good example of what can be done and while it's hardly "low cost", it's R&D budget compared to that of e.g. the F35's would be barely measurable. Someone else once said that, not necessarily just with respect to aircraft, if you are prepared to settle for 90% of the capability you can get it for a fraction of the cost and therefore afford many more units. After all one aircraft/ship/tank can only be in one place at a time.
Using latest off-the-shelf computing technology both for design and operational capability plus Scaled Composite / Skunk Works-style rapid prototyping, could surely produce something far more cost-effective than the current turgid, inflexible, military-industrial vested-interest complex manages?
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"It may be apocryphal but someone said that if current R&D and military budget trends continue even the USAF will only be able to afford to acquire a single aircraft by the middle of the century!"
Not Apcoryphal at all - thisis the well known Augustine's Law
In 1983, the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics published the first edition of Augustine’s Laws by Norman R. Augustine, then president and chief operating officer of Martin Marietta Corporation. The book is a humorous, but insightful look at the problems of managing a large corporation
Law Number XVI. In the year 2054, the entire defense budget will purchase just one aircraft. The aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and Navy, 3.5 days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day
he showed that from 1910 onwards the cost of US tactical aircraft increases at a rate of 4 times every decade - what is really frightening is that every US aircaraft built since 1983 falls on or close to his prediction......
Not Apcoryphal at all - thisis the well known Augustine's Law
In 1983, the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics published the first edition of Augustine’s Laws by Norman R. Augustine, then president and chief operating officer of Martin Marietta Corporation. The book is a humorous, but insightful look at the problems of managing a large corporation
Law Number XVI. In the year 2054, the entire defense budget will purchase just one aircraft. The aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and Navy, 3.5 days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day
he showed that from 1910 onwards the cost of US tactical aircraft increases at a rate of 4 times every decade - what is really frightening is that every US aircaraft built since 1983 falls on or close to his prediction......
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What do you need it to do and at what risk to the crew?
If you JUST need an aircraft to find low tech Isis types and lob SDB's or brimstones at them then a modified biz jet will do the job for far far less than a Tornado or F16.
BUT
If isis gets some help with AA kit the crew of the biz jet are dead meat. ( protection just puts the cost up and the utility down)
To me the risk would be lower than that run by ground troops and there for acceptable but it's not me who has to sit in the biz jet.
PLUS
Western airforces have been reluctant to by kit only useful in very low end conflicts.
If you JUST need an aircraft to find low tech Isis types and lob SDB's or brimstones at them then a modified biz jet will do the job for far far less than a Tornado or F16.
BUT
If isis gets some help with AA kit the crew of the biz jet are dead meat. ( protection just puts the cost up and the utility down)
To me the risk would be lower than that run by ground troops and there for acceptable but it's not me who has to sit in the biz jet.
PLUS
Western airforces have been reluctant to by kit only useful in very low end conflicts.
Last edited by boxmover; 6th Aug 2015 at 15:50. Reason: Can't type
Don't forget the f16.... The fighter Mafia's answer to overweight expensive fighters proposals in the f111 and f15 initial fighter proposals. General dynamics led the way from an earlier design that in itself was an f5 competitor istr
Seemed to turn out ok
Seemed to turn out ok
Depending on your anticipated threat, I'd argue - yes.
I think that if you got a small group of pilots, engineers and designers together in a country with few barriers to testing and the willingness to certify aircraft on the mil register etc. then a lot could be achieved for a lot less than $12million a piece.
Pick some sort of light aircraft and start fitting sensors and weapons.
Question is what do you want to achieve? CAS with no air threat pretty much anything would do, maybe a UAV would be better otherwise DAS adds a fair bit (but is cheaper than buying a new plane and training a new pilot).
If you want to start pulling g and beating something else in a A-A fight then I think that it would start to get expensive e.g alpha jet, L-59 etc.
Who wants to buy them though? - a friend back from Africa said
"you can't get a big kickback on a cheap contract."
Pick some sort of light aircraft and start fitting sensors and weapons.
Question is what do you want to achieve? CAS with no air threat pretty much anything would do, maybe a UAV would be better otherwise DAS adds a fair bit (but is cheaper than buying a new plane and training a new pilot).
If you want to start pulling g and beating something else in a A-A fight then I think that it would start to get expensive e.g alpha jet, L-59 etc.
Who wants to buy them though? - a friend back from Africa said
"you can't get a big kickback on a cheap contract."
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Refurbished ex USAF F16s ?
Well, “Low Cost” and “Combat Aircraft” on the same page of a wish list is a bit of a stretch.
I do remember a chance conversation with a senior BAE Systems chap a few years back that touched on this subject. He made the rather telling point that anyone committing to developing a new aircraft would likely have to complete against the US selling off refurbished ex USAF F16s.
I do remember a chance conversation with a senior BAE Systems chap a few years back that touched on this subject. He made the rather telling point that anyone committing to developing a new aircraft would likely have to complete against the US selling off refurbished ex USAF F16s.
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The quickest way to reduce the unit cost would be to remove the pilot. Drones on steroids will be the way of the future, you can have numerous units, and no aircrew at risk.
Highflyer,
Where you going to find a "drone" capable of carrying modern air-to-air missiles, all the electronics necessary to target and support them, the ability to operate those electronics (remotely or autonomously) and with all the hardware like engines, flight control system, links various, etc for a million quid? Not even close. Not even an order of magnitude out. How you going to operate air-to-air with a three second latency?
Or are you just going to launch a single (big) firework at some chaps on the ground? In which case your "drone" needs to be big enough to carry it, still needs and engine and associated stuff, guidance, control and links (good enough to to do high resolution vid in real time). Even Predator cost about 5 million a copy. Reaper, what, three times that, but that is big.
These things still need pilots. You may take him out of the cockpit,mbiut someone still needs to operate them. Not sure about the 1 million figure.
For both, a massive amount of bandwidth on satellite channels. Can you jam these signals?
Where you going to find a "drone" capable of carrying modern air-to-air missiles, all the electronics necessary to target and support them, the ability to operate those electronics (remotely or autonomously) and with all the hardware like engines, flight control system, links various, etc for a million quid? Not even close. Not even an order of magnitude out. How you going to operate air-to-air with a three second latency?
Or are you just going to launch a single (big) firework at some chaps on the ground? In which case your "drone" needs to be big enough to carry it, still needs and engine and associated stuff, guidance, control and links (good enough to to do high resolution vid in real time). Even Predator cost about 5 million a copy. Reaper, what, three times that, but that is big.
These things still need pilots. You may take him out of the cockpit,mbiut someone still needs to operate them. Not sure about the 1 million figure.
For both, a massive amount of bandwidth on satellite channels. Can you jam these signals?
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 11th Aug 2015 at 20:19.
As a (unwilling, mostly) tax-payer, I find this discussion very interesting.
The public opinion in Italy is quite outraged at the acquisition price of the new F-35, and also the way the whole deal has been handled.
Piaggio is developing a drone based on the P180 Avanti, the HammerHead.
Carrying capability isn't much (500 kg), hopefully it will be increased.
But it's also a TP, not a jet.
The public opinion in Italy is quite outraged at the acquisition price of the new F-35, and also the way the whole deal has been handled.
Piaggio is developing a drone based on the P180 Avanti, the HammerHead.
Carrying capability isn't much (500 kg), hopefully it will be increased.
But it's also a TP, not a jet.
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Was there not some grumbling from the states about reopening the A-1 Skyraider production line ? As a very cheap answer to to the F-15E mud Eagles high $ per hour rate ?
Tick's all the boxes apart from a few , a very important one being not pointy and sexy , ended up cost of reopening the production line killed the idea
Tick's all the boxes apart from a few , a very important one being not pointy and sexy , ended up cost of reopening the production line killed the idea
Was there not some grumbling from the states about reopening the A-1 Skyraider production line ? As a very cheap answer to to the F-15E mud Eagles high $ per hour rate ?
Tick's all the boxes apart from a few , a very important one being not pointy and sexy , ended up cost of reopening the production line killed the idea
Tick's all the boxes apart from a few , a very important one being not pointy and sexy , ended up cost of reopening the production line killed the idea
USS Midway VA-25's Toilet Bomb
Highflyer,
Where you going to find a "drone" capable of carrying modern air-to-air missiles, all the electronics necessary to target and support them, the ability to operate those electronics (remotely or autonomously) and with all the hardware like engines, flight control system, links various, etc for a million quid? Not even close. Not even an order of magnitude out. How you going to operate air-to-air with a three second latency?
Or are you just going to launch a single (big) firework at some chaps on the ground? In which case your "drone" needs to be big enough to carry it, still needs and engine and associated stuff, guidance, control and links (good enough to to do high resolution vid in real time). Even Predator cost about 5 million a copy. Reaper, what, three times that, but that is big.
These things still need pilots. You may take him out of the cockpit,mbiut someone still needs to operate them. Not sure about the 1 million figure.
For both, a massive amount of bandwidth on satellite channels. Can you jam these signals?
Where you going to find a "drone" capable of carrying modern air-to-air missiles, all the electronics necessary to target and support them, the ability to operate those electronics (remotely or autonomously) and with all the hardware like engines, flight control system, links various, etc for a million quid? Not even close. Not even an order of magnitude out. How you going to operate air-to-air with a three second latency?
Or are you just going to launch a single (big) firework at some chaps on the ground? In which case your "drone" needs to be big enough to carry it, still needs and engine and associated stuff, guidance, control and links (good enough to to do high resolution vid in real time). Even Predator cost about 5 million a copy. Reaper, what, three times that, but that is big.
These things still need pilots. You may take him out of the cockpit,mbiut someone still needs to operate them. Not sure about the 1 million figure.
For both, a massive amount of bandwidth on satellite channels. Can you jam these signals?
You're not wrong Courtney - Predator Drones Once Shot Back at Jets... But Sucked At It | WIRED
