Will the real EZ999 please step forward ?
Slow Flyer,
Thx for your replies.
Your #38..."I once commented to Harold that the Foliage Green on EZ999 looked a little too blue. He promptly went into the shed and came back with an original wartime tin of RAAF Foliage Green paint....end of discussion."
I agree with you! It was 'bluer' (I said "bottle green") did not look like the 'olivey' RAF delivery Dark Green. In my #23, I state 'Its “bottle-green' shading does not look consistent with olive hue of Dark Green."
But RAAF Foliage Green didn't come into service until 1944, so what era was Harold trying to create?
Certainly post-1942 when the blue/white roundels were introduced, and post-1943 when the two-letter (e.. "NH-") squadron codes were introduced. When Foliage Green did become the standard colour in 1944 it became "overall", with no browns. (However, Foliage Green might have been used for touch-ups before becoming the sole colour.)
I guess "fictitious markings" leads to such inconsistencies.
Thank you for your input, you have added some insight into the aircraft's postwar background that, I reiterate, we are lucky Harold saved for us.
Thx for your replies.
Your #38..."I once commented to Harold that the Foliage Green on EZ999 looked a little too blue. He promptly went into the shed and came back with an original wartime tin of RAAF Foliage Green paint....end of discussion."
I agree with you! It was 'bluer' (I said "bottle green") did not look like the 'olivey' RAF delivery Dark Green. In my #23, I state 'Its “bottle-green' shading does not look consistent with olive hue of Dark Green."
But RAAF Foliage Green didn't come into service until 1944, so what era was Harold trying to create?
Certainly post-1942 when the blue/white roundels were introduced, and post-1943 when the two-letter (e.. "NH-") squadron codes were introduced. When Foliage Green did become the standard colour in 1944 it became "overall", with no browns. (However, Foliage Green might have been used for touch-ups before becoming the sole colour.)
I guess "fictitious markings" leads to such inconsistencies.
Thank you for your input, you have added some insight into the aircraft's postwar background that, I reiterate, we are lucky Harold saved for us.
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So many Questions...
Slow Flyer (your #38):
"I have always assumed the original paint was stripped or the aircraft repainted silver by Sydney Tech"
I'd have thought life's too short for stripping paint off aircraft. Just rough it up a bit and slap on a new coat. Sounds like the kind of displacement activity they gave to naughty boys in the House of Correction (aka "Glasshouse": strip paint off this week, paint next week, strip it off week after, repeat ad lib).
Perhaps that was the idea for errant studes ?
Danny.
"I have always assumed the original paint was stripped or the aircraft repainted silver by Sydney Tech"
I'd have thought life's too short for stripping paint off aircraft. Just rough it up a bit and slap on a new coat. Sounds like the kind of displacement activity they gave to naughty boys in the House of Correction (aka "Glasshouse": strip paint off this week, paint next week, strip it off week after, repeat ad lib).
Perhaps that was the idea for errant studes ?
Danny.
Danny:-
Danny my ears must have been burning for they brought me to your crie de coeur above. Is this the post you speak of? If not I'll gladly root around for it. The VV memoriam posts of yours on the WW2 Pilots Brevet thread are many indeed, but I do commend them to anyone interested in Military Aircraft history, and in particular the Vengeance of course (of whatever hue):-
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...-ww11-129.html
#5 Vlad's (the Impaler ?) famous YouTube again. Chugalug2 found it for me early on (and I've wasted a lot of time trying to trace his Post ['Search' being as much use as a chocolate teapot]
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...-ww11-129.html
Last edited by Chugalug2; 8th Aug 2015 at 09:27. Reason: words, dear boy, words!
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Chugalug,
Thanks for the link !
That's the one all right ! (your Post p.129/#2561). This triggered off a whole string of comments, questions and answers, which kept the "Pilot's Brevet" Thread up as No.1 in the Charts of "Military Aircrew" (as it then was) for quite a long time.
Has anyone else noticed how the Mighty have Fallen ? "Our" Thread has always boasted the highest number of Posts (CapCom excepted, and that is clearly a special case) on "Military Aviation". Now we are running 50-odd Posts behind "F-35 Cancelled, then what ?" Ah, well.
Danny.
Thanks for the link !
That's the one all right ! (your Post p.129/#2561). This triggered off a whole string of comments, questions and answers, which kept the "Pilot's Brevet" Thread up as No.1 in the Charts of "Military Aircrew" (as it then was) for quite a long time.
Has anyone else noticed how the Mighty have Fallen ? "Our" Thread has always boasted the highest number of Posts (CapCom excepted, and that is clearly a special case) on "Military Aviation". Now we are running 50-odd Posts behind "F-35 Cancelled, then what ?" Ah, well.
Danny.
Well let's bump this thread up then Danny. That YouTube link leads in turn to this one. I don't remember posting it before but, as ever, your memory will be better than mine:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k
Bombtruck!
Wow chugalug, your link was an eyeopener. After reading all Danny's pages again yesterday, I still had no conception of how big the Vengeance was. the humans put it into perspective. It was a huge bombtruck!
My experience was on a little delta wing bomber that was hurled off boats and my minds scales my plane as smaller.
Kudos to Danny!
My experience was on a little delta wing bomber that was hurled off boats and my minds scales my plane as smaller.
Kudos to Danny!
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Danny,
A pic of the VV during her time at the college has been posted over at adf.serials: ADF Serials Message Board -> Veneance Ez999. My memory isn't fading, she really was silver.
I'll let this thread run it's course and pop on over to the Brevet thread from here on in.
Cheers SF
I'd have thought life's too short for stripping paint off aircraft. Just rough it up a bit and slap on a new coat.
I'll let this thread run it's course and pop on over to the Brevet thread from here on in.
Cheers SF
More Veneances to come
From adf serials:
"Components of Vultee Vengeance A27-247 together with parts of Vengeance airframes is currently with the Historic Aircraft Restorations (HARS) at Albion Park, NSW:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2852/10373127...8dc8e0de9_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3805/10372927...2c7c8a66e_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3810/10372930...ae51c552e_h.jpg
A27-247 was recovered from Lancelin Airfield, WA by Stan Gajda in the 70s together with other Vengeance components from Boulder (Kalgoolie), WA where 30 Vengeance airframes were scrapped at CMU Boulder post war. The parts originally went to the Bull Creek Museum, then to Whaleworld and then Precision Aerospace at Wangarratta before being transferred to HARS.
Rumours abound that not one but two Vengeances will be restored at HARS with one to go back to the USA on completion. Apparently there's a world-wide search being conducted at present for Vengeance components.
I hope this is of some help.
The threads on the provenance of EZ999 has been fascinating reading."
A27-247 is an A-31 Vengeance IIA, ex AF929, which served in 25 SQN RAAF.
"Components of Vultee Vengeance A27-247 together with parts of Vengeance airframes is currently with the Historic Aircraft Restorations (HARS) at Albion Park, NSW:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2852/10373127...8dc8e0de9_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3805/10372927...2c7c8a66e_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3810/10372930...ae51c552e_h.jpg
A27-247 was recovered from Lancelin Airfield, WA by Stan Gajda in the 70s together with other Vengeance components from Boulder (Kalgoolie), WA where 30 Vengeance airframes were scrapped at CMU Boulder post war. The parts originally went to the Bull Creek Museum, then to Whaleworld and then Precision Aerospace at Wangarratta before being transferred to HARS.
Rumours abound that not one but two Vengeances will be restored at HARS with one to go back to the USA on completion. Apparently there's a world-wide search being conducted at present for Vengeance components.
I hope this is of some help.
The threads on the provenance of EZ999 has been fascinating reading."
A27-247 is an A-31 Vengeance IIA, ex AF929, which served in 25 SQN RAAF.
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BBad,
Thanks for the links ! - No.2 and No.3 don't add much, but No.1 is the winner! Clear as day on the fuselage sides are the bolt etc. holes for the wing attachments. Even to my unskilled eye, it's plain that there was zero AoI. Proof Positive !
Your: "The threads on the provenance of EZ999 has been fascinating reading".
Too true - what have we started here ? (the Smithsonian missed a trick didn't they, [or rather two tricks, for they haven't got an A-35 either], but I wager it's far too late to find enough bits to rebuild any more (Nagpur ?). Pack it in !
NOW LET'S ALL GO BACK TO THE "BREVET" THREAD SHALL WE ? THE "EZ999" THREAD HAS COMPLETELY ACHIEVED ITS PURPOSE, LET IT JUST DRIFT OFF INTO HONOURABLE RETIREMENT.
(I hope Cooda Shooda, "Warbirdz", Slow Flyer and all the others who've helped us to settle the question once and for all find this message).
G'night, all
Danny42C.
Thanks for the links ! - No.2 and No.3 don't add much, but No.1 is the winner! Clear as day on the fuselage sides are the bolt etc. holes for the wing attachments. Even to my unskilled eye, it's plain that there was zero AoI. Proof Positive !
Your: "The threads on the provenance of EZ999 has been fascinating reading".
Too true - what have we started here ? (the Smithsonian missed a trick didn't they, [or rather two tricks, for they haven't got an A-35 either], but I wager it's far too late to find enough bits to rebuild any more (Nagpur ?). Pack it in !
NOW LET'S ALL GO BACK TO THE "BREVET" THREAD SHALL WE ? THE "EZ999" THREAD HAS COMPLETELY ACHIEVED ITS PURPOSE, LET IT JUST DRIFT OFF INTO HONOURABLE RETIREMENT.
(I hope Cooda Shooda, "Warbirdz", Slow Flyer and all the others who've helped us to settle the question once and for all find this message).
G'night, all
Danny42C.
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Bombtruck !
Three Wire (your #46),
When I first clapped eyes on it (I said): "It looked like a double-decker bus with wings !" It was 48 ft wingspan, 40 ft long and 14 ft to the top of the engine cowling (how does that compare with yours?) AUW was around 14,000 lb.
Thanks for the compliment !
Danny.
When I first clapped eyes on it (I said): "It looked like a double-decker bus with wings !" It was 48 ft wingspan, 40 ft long and 14 ft to the top of the engine cowling (how does that compare with yours?) AUW was around 14,000 lb.
Thanks for the compliment !
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 13th Aug 2015 at 00:28. Reason: Typo.
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RE: EZ999
I'm the supervisor at the Camden Museum of Aviation and have had an association with the museum for over thirty years.
I see a lot of articles stories etc about our museum and collection that aren't overly accurate or well informed. Some of this one has given me some amusement.
So we get the stories right if anyone wishes to answers to specific questions or wants some detail of triple nine then please feel free to message me and I will do my best to assist your quest.
Cheers
Steve Long
Camden Museum of Aviation.
I see a lot of articles stories etc about our museum and collection that aren't overly accurate or well informed. Some of this one has given me some amusement.
So we get the stories right if anyone wishes to answers to specific questions or wants some detail of triple nine then please feel free to message me and I will do my best to assist your quest.
Cheers
Steve Long
Camden Museum of Aviation.
Some of this one has given me some amusement
And as an aside, museums often put out misinformation as well, not their fault, because their source of information may be incorrect. A particular museum in NSW tells the story that a service operated a particular model of aircraft, but it didn't, and I know because I was a pilot involved.
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Will the real EZ999 please step forward ?
Megan,
Thank you for entering the lists in my support, but I'm surprised this topic has popped up again. Following Slow Flyer's conclusive evidence, I accepted (my #28) that what the Museum had got the real EZ999, which was a Mk.IA. Our search was at an end.
It was just unfortunate that, having got it, for whatever reason the Museum then had to fit it out with a 0.50 cal Browning (the hallmark of a Mk.IV), complete with a matching rear canopy section, and a "bitsa" instrument panel that was certainly not that of a Mk.IA (or I suspect, of a Mk.IV. either).
There's really no more to be said on the subject. I wish the various groups which are trying to resurrect a second one well, but reckon they're on a hiding to nothing.
Danny42C.
Thank you for entering the lists in my support, but I'm surprised this topic has popped up again. Following Slow Flyer's conclusive evidence, I accepted (my #28) that what the Museum had got the real EZ999, which was a Mk.IA. Our search was at an end.
...So the Great EZ999 Mystery is solved at last; I can pipe down now and rest on my oars. My thanks to all who have helped me on this three-year old quest. EZ999 lives still in Narellan - long may it remain so, as a standing reproach to an Air Force which commissioned it, bought it, used it in a desperate time and then turned its back on it...
There's really no more to be said on the subject. I wish the various groups which are trying to resurrect a second one well, but reckon they're on a hiding to nothing.
Danny42C.
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EZ999
I'm the museum supervisor for the Camden Museum of Aviation
If there are questions etc regarding EZ triple nine please feel free to
message me and I will endeavour to assist with your enquiry.
Regards
Steve Long
If there are questions etc regarding EZ triple nine please feel free to
message me and I will endeavour to assist with your enquiry.
Regards
Steve Long
You've not answered the question already put to you.
It would go some way to perhaps correcting, or adding to, information given here.
Steve, you might spell out for the edification of the people here what it is that has provided the amusement
Megan, Danny,
The fact that Steve Long (who is the museum supervisor of the Camden Aviation Museum) is simply repeating his position and offer to help off line, makes me think that he has no intention of explaining the cause of his amusement on line.
He may be slightly defensive about any challenge to the authenticity or provenance of one of his exhibits. Perhaps he doesn't quite understand the genuine interest here or the good nature of the discussion.
The fact that Steve Long (who is the museum supervisor of the Camden Aviation Museum) is simply repeating his position and offer to help off line, makes me think that he has no intention of explaining the cause of his amusement on line.
He may be slightly defensive about any challenge to the authenticity or provenance of one of his exhibits. Perhaps he doesn't quite understand the genuine interest here or the good nature of the discussion.
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Ghostrider,
It would, I'm sure, be appreciated by the many who have contributed to, or just followed, this discussion if you could let us know
where the conclusions arrived at are flawed.
Thanks in anticipation.
It would, I'm sure, be appreciated by the many who have contributed to, or just followed, this discussion if you could let us know
where the conclusions arrived at are flawed.
Thanks in anticipation.
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Envoi.
Ghostrider870, megan, Courtney Mil and Stanwell,
Gentlemen, please do not be overly concerned about this affair. It's all 'done and dusted' now. The whole problem arose in the first place because I (and others) worked on the well-known principle that: "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck".
Now we are all satisfied that it is not a duck (all appearances to the contrary), and there is really nothing more to be said. It would be nice to see it flying, but there is scant chance of that happening now. There must be (very) old men alive in Oz who've flown them, and could pass on the 'gen' to some young fella willing to "have a go" (and I'd add my two cents' worth if asked, and if I'm still here).
But I'm not holding my breath !
Danny.
Gentlemen, please do not be overly concerned about this affair. It's all 'done and dusted' now. The whole problem arose in the first place because I (and others) worked on the well-known principle that: "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck".
Now we are all satisfied that it is not a duck (all appearances to the contrary), and there is really nothing more to be said. It would be nice to see it flying, but there is scant chance of that happening now. There must be (very) old men alive in Oz who've flown them, and could pass on the 'gen' to some young fella willing to "have a go" (and I'd add my two cents' worth if asked, and if I'm still here).
But I'm not holding my breath !
Danny.
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Just for the record I had mutiple posts here because they had to be checked by a moderator first, I missed this fairly important bit of information and mistakenly reposted the same message.
Now why did this cause me amusement? mainly because once again I saw a lot of things being written about our museum that could have been easily answered by us with a simple email, phone call or facebook message. All relevant contact details are displayed on our web site and FB page.
I made it clear in my posts that I was more than happy to assist with any questions regarding EZ999 or any of our collection but I asked it was via PM so I would get a notification via email. I am presently working my day job, carrying out my CMA duties, assisting another museum and restoring 1 1/2 Sea Venoms so I dont get to check every web site as mush as I'd like to.
I would point out that nobody has contacted me.
Having said that and worked with many museums and organisation and having supplied large amount of information to sites such as this, many modelling sites and model kit manufacturers I would have to say that the responses of a few members of this forum have been downright rude and insulting. "He may be slightly defensive about any challenge to the authenticity or provenance of one of his exhibits." Seriously? If you had bothered to contact me then you would have discovered how far from the truth that statement is.
For future reference any one with a bona fide enquiry can contact us via the website or FB page. As for wasting my time with this site again? I'll not bother thanks.
Steve Long
Now why did this cause me amusement? mainly because once again I saw a lot of things being written about our museum that could have been easily answered by us with a simple email, phone call or facebook message. All relevant contact details are displayed on our web site and FB page.
I made it clear in my posts that I was more than happy to assist with any questions regarding EZ999 or any of our collection but I asked it was via PM so I would get a notification via email. I am presently working my day job, carrying out my CMA duties, assisting another museum and restoring 1 1/2 Sea Venoms so I dont get to check every web site as mush as I'd like to.
I would point out that nobody has contacted me.
Having said that and worked with many museums and organisation and having supplied large amount of information to sites such as this, many modelling sites and model kit manufacturers I would have to say that the responses of a few members of this forum have been downright rude and insulting. "He may be slightly defensive about any challenge to the authenticity or provenance of one of his exhibits." Seriously? If you had bothered to contact me then you would have discovered how far from the truth that statement is.
For future reference any one with a bona fide enquiry can contact us via the website or FB page. As for wasting my time with this site again? I'll not bother thanks.
Steve Long
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We know what it is Now.
It is sad to see this discussion end in such an acrimonious way.
Nevertheless, I must take issue with;
.
Cooda Shooda,
You should be able to turn up and confirm receiving:
and
Time to lay this to rest, I think.
Danny42C.
Nevertheless, I must take issue with;
...I would point out that nobody has contacted me..
Cooda Shooda,
You should be able to turn up and confirm receiving:
...(My reply to you 16.6.15.):
It is good to hear that someone is trying to resurrect a flyable one, but it won't be easy. As you say, most of the survivors will be from the Mk.IVs that came out at the end; it is hard to imagine that there will be much left of the Mks.I and II, (the only ones which we and, I believe, the RAAF) went on 'ops' with in the War). We got Mk.IIIs in India when it ended, but they only did odd jobs. I don't think you got any IIIs at all.
The only useful reference book I know is: "Vengeance!" The Vultee Vengeance Dive Bomber by Peter C. Smith, Airlife Publishing, 1986. The Brazilian River has one at £7.49 (your $15.05) at the moment.
Wiki (and the Museum) still says that the Camden Museum one is a MkIA (US A-31), but I think it's a Mk.IV (US A-35), as it has that massive 0.50 "cannon" at the back, which is the hallmark of the Mk.IV (all the others have 2x 0.300/303s).
The clincher would be if your warbird mag chap could check the wing: if there's a 4° Angle of Incidence, it's a IV: if zero, not! - and the airframe No. on the fuselage is a fake (although the paperwork may be genuine, this is not) # EZ999. [EDIT: # I flew EZ993 on 24.2.44, it was the end of the VV, but we, fortunately, lived to tell the tale]. Be that as it may, it looks all there and should be capable of getting into flying condition. The test pilot will have no trouble, it's just a big old pussycat.
Good luck with it ! Danny...
It is good to hear that someone is trying to resurrect a flyable one, but it won't be easy. As you say, most of the survivors will be from the Mk.IVs that came out at the end; it is hard to imagine that there will be much left of the Mks.I and II, (the only ones which we and, I believe, the RAAF) went on 'ops' with in the War). We got Mk.IIIs in India when it ended, but they only did odd jobs. I don't think you got any IIIs at all.
The only useful reference book I know is: "Vengeance!" The Vultee Vengeance Dive Bomber by Peter C. Smith, Airlife Publishing, 1986. The Brazilian River has one at £7.49 (your $15.05) at the moment.
Wiki (and the Museum) still says that the Camden Museum one is a MkIA (US A-31), but I think it's a Mk.IV (US A-35), as it has that massive 0.50 "cannon" at the back, which is the hallmark of the Mk.IV (all the others have 2x 0.300/303s).
The clincher would be if your warbird mag chap could check the wing: if there's a 4° Angle of Incidence, it's a IV: if zero, not! - and the airframe No. on the fuselage is a fake (although the paperwork may be genuine, this is not) # EZ999. [EDIT: # I flew EZ993 on 24.2.44, it was the end of the VV, but we, fortunately, lived to tell the tale]. Be that as it may, it looks all there and should be capable of getting into flying condition. The test pilot will have no trouble, it's just a big old pussycat.
Good luck with it ! Danny...
...Cooda Shooda,
I've decided to follow up the Narellan Vengeance in an attempt to settle its identity once and for all.
It is now (17 July 15) a full calendar month since I sent a message to the Camden Museum on their website Message Pad, querying whether they had got their Vengeance exhibit (the last one of its kind remaining in the world) correctly catalogued as "EZ999, a Mark 1A", whereas I believe it to be a Mark IV. I told them that, if I had a reply from them within a month, I would put it out on open Post on this Thread: but if they did not, I would put my query to them out on Post anyway.
(This may seem a pettifogging point to some, but as it is the only one left, and I am possibly the only man left alive who flew them operationally, I think it is incumbent on me to try and get the Museum story right).
Of course I had a copy of my query tucked away safe on a Notepad file and Flash Drive (or so I thought). But a fortnight ago I had a Senior Moment (Mental Aberration !) which resulted in my irrevocably losing it (and a lot more - don't ask me how I managed to do it !) As always, I had been scrupulously polite to them first time, so I ate humble pie, explained what had happened and asked them to email me back a copy of my query. This fell on stony ground, too, which is rather surprising as their current website says:
"The Camden Museum of Aviation will be temporarily closed for maintenance until further notice — watch this site for details of our re-opening! Until then, enjoy viewing our website and please feel free to contact us if you have any comments or suggestions"... This implies that they will reply to messages, but it seems not to be so. So I'm reliant on memory alone now, and here goes....
I've decided to follow up the Narellan Vengeance in an attempt to settle its identity once and for all.
It is now (17 July 15) a full calendar month since I sent a message to the Camden Museum on their website Message Pad, querying whether they had got their Vengeance exhibit (the last one of its kind remaining in the world) correctly catalogued as "EZ999, a Mark 1A", whereas I believe it to be a Mark IV. I told them that, if I had a reply from them within a month, I would put it out on open Post on this Thread: but if they did not, I would put my query to them out on Post anyway.
(This may seem a pettifogging point to some, but as it is the only one left, and I am possibly the only man left alive who flew them operationally, I think it is incumbent on me to try and get the Museum story right).
Of course I had a copy of my query tucked away safe on a Notepad file and Flash Drive (or so I thought). But a fortnight ago I had a Senior Moment (Mental Aberration !) which resulted in my irrevocably losing it (and a lot more - don't ask me how I managed to do it !) As always, I had been scrupulously polite to them first time, so I ate humble pie, explained what had happened and asked them to email me back a copy of my query. This fell on stony ground, too, which is rather surprising as their current website says:
"The Camden Museum of Aviation will be temporarily closed for maintenance until further notice — watch this site for details of our re-opening! Until then, enjoy viewing our website and please feel free to contact us if you have any comments or suggestions"... This implies that they will reply to messages, but it seems not to be so. So I'm reliant on memory alone now, and here goes....
Danny42C.