Will the real EZ999 please step forward ?
Vengeances – camouflage colours
To continue our discussion into EZ999, I think it is appropriate to briefly look at the Vengeance in RAAF service in Australia and New Guinea, and in more depth its (primarily) RAF camouflage. Now for those here who do not want to get into an “anorak train-spotter” conversation, perhaps you need to leave now. It is just that you may get bored.
In Australia, the RAAF received 342 Vengeances, all of which were delivered from the US through Lend-Lease, and many of which were diverted by the British Purchasing Commission from RAF contracts:
The aircraft camouflage was:
“With British and Australian air forces being the ones interested in the Vengeance from the outset, the initial production paint finish for all production at both Vultee and Northrop factories was to be solely the one which conformed to the RAF’s ‘Temperate Land Scheme’, which was a two-colour disruptive upper camouflage consisting of a green called Dark Green and a brown called Dark Earth. As the Vengeance was a day-flying type, underside camouflage would be the light grey-green colour first phased into RAF use during 1940, called Sky. (Early model Vengeances subsequently diverted into the USAAF were also delivered in this scheme; only later were some deliveries to USAAF orders made in that service’s regular Dark Olive Drab with Medium Green ‘splotches’ and Neutral Grey undersides.)” [fn 5]
US and Canadian paint manufacturers supplied American aircraft builders with paints intended to replicate the required British colours, but sometimes the colour match varied. To expedite production, it appears that in March 1942 the US Dark Olive Drab was substituted for the British Dark Green, and all aircraft would simply be sprayed Dark Olive Drab on their upper and side surfaces, with aircraft earmarked for British and Commonwealth air forces could have the second colour, Dark Earth, added later. When RAAF Vengeances’ paintwork was touched up, RAAF colours Foliage Green, Earth Brown and Sky would have been used, until May 1944 when the scheme was rationalised to overall Foliage Green.
EZ999 may have been repainted at some stage. This may have been during its service at the hands of the technical apprentices at Sydney Technical College, or when procured by Mr Thomas at Camden in the early 1960s. Its “bottle-green” shading does not look consistent with olive hue of Dark Green. In addition, its national markings can be a useful timeline. In 1979, EZ999 was moved by Mr Thomas’ museum to its new site in Narellan (near Camden).
National Markings
Vengeances delivered to Australia came in either RAF markings or USAAF markings. Some RAF Vengeances were diverted directly to the USAAF, and carried RAF camouflage and RAF serial numbers, but the US star national marking (as per EZ856 on the cover of P C Smith’s “Vengeance” book). RAF aircraft were delivered with the red-white-blue 5-3-1 ‘Type A’ roundel (where diameter of 5 is the outer blue circle, diameter 3 is the white ring, and diameter 1 is the inner red disc), or with a yellow ring around this roundel, ‘Type A1’ (7-5-3-1). The ADF Serials web page for the Vengeance (A27) has a nice colour pic of an early RAAF Vengeance line-up in 1942, and they have ‘Type A’ roundels, with apparently the yellow of the A1 roundel overpainted with Dark Earth. EZ999 was probably delivered with the ‘Type A1’ fuselage roundels.
In the RAAF, the national markings were changed from mid-1942 from the RAF ‘Type A’ fuselage red-white-blue roundel, deleting the red (and avoid confusion with the Japanese red ‘meatball’), and similarly with the red-blue ‘Type B’ wings roundel. This deletion of the red disc led to variations in the blue-white roundel. In 1942, the red was simply over-painted making a large white disc, but by 1945 the blue had become wider, making a primarily blue roundel with smaller white centre.
In the case of EZ999, its roundel has been changed from the RAF ‘Type A1’ to the post-1942 RAAF blue/white roundel and fin flash, either when it emerged from its storage crate in 1949 by the apprentices at Sydney Tech, or more likely by Mr Thomas in the early 1960s in preparation for display at Camden airfield. The central red was either just overpainted (i.e. to a two-colour 5-3 roundel), or perhaps all new roundels were applied at some stage. Now assuming it had remained in its packing crate from delivery in 1943 until disposal in 1949 - which is quite likely as it never flew - it probably didn't receive its blue/white 5-3 roundels until the early 1960s. Consistent with this, the fin flash had been changed from the RAF tricolour to the white/blue (i.e. white leading) flash.
Squadron Code
Now remember that EZ999 had no operational or flying history with the RAAF. From delivery in 1943, until release by the Commonwealth Disposals Commission in 1949, it apparently remained in its crate.
So for EZ999, this ‘NH’ code is fictitious, but it is painted in the correct Medium Sea Grey. The 12 SQN ‘NH’ code applied by Mr Thomas at Camden in the early 1960s was intended to be kept simple - with straight letter strokes, and ‘NH-Y’ was formulated. 12 SQN operated the Vengeance throughout northern Australia.
The New Guinea deployed units were 21 SQN (MJ-), 23 SQN (NV-) and 24 SQN (GR-), while a fifth unit was 25 SQN (SJ-) in Western Australia.
The three New Guinea squadron operated under the US 5th Air Force, and therefore over the 1943-44 period had the mandatory all-white empennage. Now this marking instruction could be misinterpreted - so some aircraft had a complete white empennage, some had a white fin, some a white rudder. Perhaps to avoid making a mistake, or to save painting too much white paint, this option was fortunately not exercised at Camden on EZ999.
Similarly, the ‘Dina-Might’ nose art was fictitious, but made for a colourful (albeit inaccurate) public display.
Serial Number
As EZ999 was never flown by the RAAF and remained in its box, the serial number was never changed to the RAAF allocated A27-99. The RAF serial appears to be of accurate size and strokes, and the black colour is correct for a newly delivered aircraft of 1943. This similarly was the case with the two crated Spitfires referred to in my post #20, MV154 and MV239. However, by the time these were delivered in late 1944/early 1945, they were marked with the then standard RAF ‘Type C1’ type roundel (i.e. thin yellow outer ring, thin white inner ring between the blue and the red, 9-8-4-3).
There, a quick phase brief in aircraft cam and markings...anyone still awake ??
In Australia, the RAAF received 342 Vengeances, all of which were delivered from the US through Lend-Lease, and many of which were diverted by the British Purchasing Commission from RAF contracts:
- 99 x A-31 Vengeance Mk.I/IA all Northrop-built and ex RAF contracts – A27-1 to A27-15 V-72 Mk.I (in AN853 to AN898 block); and A-31-NO A27-16 to A27-99 Mk.IA (EZ800 to EZ999 block, USAAF 41-30848 to 41-31047 block). [see below, fn 1, 2, 3]
- 122 x A-31 Mk.II and Mk.IIA, A27-200 to A27-321, either Vultee-built (with RAF AN serials up to AN837) or Northrop-built (AF serials).
- 121 x A-35A and A-35B Mk.IV-2, all Vultee-built to USAAF orders:
- A27-400 to -422 Vultee-built A-35A-VN ex USAAF (23),
- A27-500 to -549 Vultee-built A-35B-5-VN ex USAAF (50),
- A27-560 to -566 Vultee-built A-35B-10-VN ex USAAF (7),
- A27-600 to -640 Vultee-built A-35B-15-VN ex USAAF (41). [fn 4]
The aircraft camouflage was:
“With British and Australian air forces being the ones interested in the Vengeance from the outset, the initial production paint finish for all production at both Vultee and Northrop factories was to be solely the one which conformed to the RAF’s ‘Temperate Land Scheme’, which was a two-colour disruptive upper camouflage consisting of a green called Dark Green and a brown called Dark Earth. As the Vengeance was a day-flying type, underside camouflage would be the light grey-green colour first phased into RAF use during 1940, called Sky. (Early model Vengeances subsequently diverted into the USAAF were also delivered in this scheme; only later were some deliveries to USAAF orders made in that service’s regular Dark Olive Drab with Medium Green ‘splotches’ and Neutral Grey undersides.)” [fn 5]
US and Canadian paint manufacturers supplied American aircraft builders with paints intended to replicate the required British colours, but sometimes the colour match varied. To expedite production, it appears that in March 1942 the US Dark Olive Drab was substituted for the British Dark Green, and all aircraft would simply be sprayed Dark Olive Drab on their upper and side surfaces, with aircraft earmarked for British and Commonwealth air forces could have the second colour, Dark Earth, added later. When RAAF Vengeances’ paintwork was touched up, RAAF colours Foliage Green, Earth Brown and Sky would have been used, until May 1944 when the scheme was rationalised to overall Foliage Green.
EZ999 may have been repainted at some stage. This may have been during its service at the hands of the technical apprentices at Sydney Technical College, or when procured by Mr Thomas at Camden in the early 1960s. Its “bottle-green” shading does not look consistent with olive hue of Dark Green. In addition, its national markings can be a useful timeline. In 1979, EZ999 was moved by Mr Thomas’ museum to its new site in Narellan (near Camden).
National Markings
Vengeances delivered to Australia came in either RAF markings or USAAF markings. Some RAF Vengeances were diverted directly to the USAAF, and carried RAF camouflage and RAF serial numbers, but the US star national marking (as per EZ856 on the cover of P C Smith’s “Vengeance” book). RAF aircraft were delivered with the red-white-blue 5-3-1 ‘Type A’ roundel (where diameter of 5 is the outer blue circle, diameter 3 is the white ring, and diameter 1 is the inner red disc), or with a yellow ring around this roundel, ‘Type A1’ (7-5-3-1). The ADF Serials web page for the Vengeance (A27) has a nice colour pic of an early RAAF Vengeance line-up in 1942, and they have ‘Type A’ roundels, with apparently the yellow of the A1 roundel overpainted with Dark Earth. EZ999 was probably delivered with the ‘Type A1’ fuselage roundels.
In the RAAF, the national markings were changed from mid-1942 from the RAF ‘Type A’ fuselage red-white-blue roundel, deleting the red (and avoid confusion with the Japanese red ‘meatball’), and similarly with the red-blue ‘Type B’ wings roundel. This deletion of the red disc led to variations in the blue-white roundel. In 1942, the red was simply over-painted making a large white disc, but by 1945 the blue had become wider, making a primarily blue roundel with smaller white centre.
In the case of EZ999, its roundel has been changed from the RAF ‘Type A1’ to the post-1942 RAAF blue/white roundel and fin flash, either when it emerged from its storage crate in 1949 by the apprentices at Sydney Tech, or more likely by Mr Thomas in the early 1960s in preparation for display at Camden airfield. The central red was either just overpainted (i.e. to a two-colour 5-3 roundel), or perhaps all new roundels were applied at some stage. Now assuming it had remained in its packing crate from delivery in 1943 until disposal in 1949 - which is quite likely as it never flew - it probably didn't receive its blue/white 5-3 roundels until the early 1960s. Consistent with this, the fin flash had been changed from the RAF tricolour to the white/blue (i.e. white leading) flash.
Squadron Code
Now remember that EZ999 had no operational or flying history with the RAAF. From delivery in 1943, until release by the Commonwealth Disposals Commission in 1949, it apparently remained in its crate.
So for EZ999, this ‘NH’ code is fictitious, but it is painted in the correct Medium Sea Grey. The 12 SQN ‘NH’ code applied by Mr Thomas at Camden in the early 1960s was intended to be kept simple - with straight letter strokes, and ‘NH-Y’ was formulated. 12 SQN operated the Vengeance throughout northern Australia.
The New Guinea deployed units were 21 SQN (MJ-), 23 SQN (NV-) and 24 SQN (GR-), while a fifth unit was 25 SQN (SJ-) in Western Australia.
The three New Guinea squadron operated under the US 5th Air Force, and therefore over the 1943-44 period had the mandatory all-white empennage. Now this marking instruction could be misinterpreted - so some aircraft had a complete white empennage, some had a white fin, some a white rudder. Perhaps to avoid making a mistake, or to save painting too much white paint, this option was fortunately not exercised at Camden on EZ999.
Similarly, the ‘Dina-Might’ nose art was fictitious, but made for a colourful (albeit inaccurate) public display.
Serial Number
As EZ999 was never flown by the RAAF and remained in its box, the serial number was never changed to the RAAF allocated A27-99. The RAF serial appears to be of accurate size and strokes, and the black colour is correct for a newly delivered aircraft of 1943. This similarly was the case with the two crated Spitfires referred to in my post #20, MV154 and MV239. However, by the time these were delivered in late 1944/early 1945, they were marked with the then standard RAF ‘Type C1’ type roundel (i.e. thin yellow outer ring, thin white inner ring between the blue and the red, 9-8-4-3).
There, a quick phase brief in aircraft cam and markings...anyone still awake ??
- British Military Aircraft Serials 1878-1987, Bruce Roberston, Midland, Leicester, 1987, ISBN 0 904597 61 X, pg.141.
- Vengeance, Peter C Smith, Airlife, Shrewsbury, 1986, ISBN 0 906393 65 5, pg.175-6.
- Lend-Lease Aircraft of WWII, Arthur Pearcy, Airlife, Shrewsury, 1996, ISBN 1 85310 443 4, pg.158.
- ADF Serials website, A27 Vultee Vengeance.
- Aviation History Colouring Book no.23 Vultee Vengeance, Ian K Baker, Queenscliff, 1996, ISSN 1322-0217, pgs.1-3.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,809
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
I'm here, Sir. Ah, my Robertson reference book is the 1971 edition, so only covers 1911-1971. It still lists EZ999 as a Mk 1A, though! 
I shall now peruse "Bombing Colours" by Michael J F Bowyer, 1973 (First Edition) in detail. I see it already mentions [p 189] the Vengeances of 82, 84 and 110 Sqns. Of course, the application/changes to roundel colours/proportions were, I assume, often done under field conditions, so it would hardly be surprising if variations were encountered. The same could apply to overall paint colours - "Just get on and paint it green - there's a war on, you know!"
Other bookcase items may be dusted down over the next few days.
I shall now peruse "Bombing Colours" by Michael J F Bowyer, 1973 (First Edition) in detail. I see it already mentions [p 189] the Vengeances of 82, 84 and 110 Sqns. Of course, the application/changes to roundel colours/proportions were, I assume, often done under field conditions, so it would hardly be surprising if variations were encountered. The same could apply to overall paint colours - "Just get on and paint it green - there's a war on, you know!"
Other bookcase items may be dusted down over the next few days.
Last edited by MPN11; 5th Aug 2015 at 18:57. Reason: oops ... 110 Sqn
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Antipodes
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Truth Is Out There......Just Ask
(ask Wayne Brown, if he still lives, or buy a copy of [PCS] !)
You have my attention. I know I'm due for my bi-annual aircrew medical, but I honestly think I'll get through again ok.
I'll try to answer a few of your questions and put your mind at rest that A27-99 (EZ999) actually is sitting in the hangar at Narellan.
Firstly, what I meant to write in Peter Smith's book Vengeance is that all the external markings other than the serial currently worn by the aircraft are ficticious. That includes the colours, the nose art and the unit codes. The photos I've seen of the VV during it's time at the Tech College show it was overall silver (possibly devoid of paint).
As for physical evidence, if memory serves me correct (I haven't seen the aircraft in nearly 30 years), there is an inscription written in pencil inside either the bomb-bay or a wheel-well stating; "last Northrop built ship" or words to that effect. Harold Thomas pointed it out to me and stated that he believed it had been written by someone at Hawthorne during manufacture. As we now, EZ999 was the last Vengeance built by Northrop.
Regarding the .50 cal gun; The aircraft was totally devoid of armament when used by the Tech College so Harold fitted what he could find to make it look like a warbird and not a college training aid (which in effect is what the aircraft was when he took ownership of it). By the way, he was an instructor at the Tech College at that time.
As for the mix of Vengeance IV parts that made their way onto the aircraft; The aircraft was missing some hardware when he received it, particularly from the rear fuselage and empenage. He drove across Australia to Kalgoorlie in Western Australia (back in the 60's and early 70's that meant travelling over hundreds of miles of corrigated dirt roads). Kalgoorlie was the wartime site of No.4 Aircraft Depot and became the last resting place for many of 25 Squadron's Mk II and Mk IV aircraft. Harold loaded his booty onto his trailer and drove the 1500 miles home...only to find the replacement tail fairing he had found had become dislodged and was lost overboard along the way. I believe this trip accounts for the number of Mk IV items fitted to the aircraft.
Anyway...there you have it. A27-99 is alive and well. As an aside, my day job these days revolves around the Hawk 127, which is the second type to carry the RAAF aircraft ident code of A27.
All the best, SF.
Last edited by Slow Flyer; 6th Aug 2015 at 07:44. Reason: Following Danny's orders.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,809
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Awesome, Slow Flyer 
Slow Flyer, well done!! Thanks Wayne.
A good answer and solving the mystery.
And the new A27 - do you know why it is called a Hawk 127 ?
BAE Systems were coming up with a specific designator for this 100-series Hawk, I think Hawk 115 had been allocated already to the Canadian NATO model. BAE Australia reported back to Warton that the RAAF had just allocated the 'A27' serial designator to the new trainer (about 1996 timeframe), so BAE in UK said: well then, Hawk 127 it is!
A good answer and solving the mystery.
And the new A27 - do you know why it is called a Hawk 127 ?
BAE Systems were coming up with a specific designator for this 100-series Hawk, I think Hawk 115 had been allocated already to the Canadian NATO model. BAE Australia reported back to Warton that the RAAF had just allocated the 'A27' serial designator to the new trainer (about 1996 timeframe), so BAE in UK said: well then, Hawk 127 it is!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Will the real EZ999 please step forward ?
Why do I never learn to leave things alone ? - I feel like the Sorcerer's Apprentice ! - MAYDAY !
I thought I might get one or two "bites", then the thing would die out. I'd made my point, and that would be that. Now we've got 23 Posts and 3000+ hits in 48 hours. There are so many hares running now that I can't keep up. I'll have to put my two cent's worth in in Post order, one at a time, until I catch up. And please remember:
Three years ago I wrote ('Pilot's Brevet', p.128 #2560): "A great deal of what follows is no more than hearsay from those days. I had no means then, and have no means now, of verifying what I was told".
This was in the days when I hadn't yet realised what a mine of information lay untapped in Google/Wiki.
-----------------------
First off is:
BBad (#16):
"its "bottle-green" and earth camouflage just looked a bit suss". But it was first-class against a jungle background.
---------------------------------
chevvron (#17): "Wasn't the Blackburn Skua originally a dive bomber?"
Yes,
"...... was being shelled by U-30 and all three dived to attack the submarine, which quickly dived to safety. Two of the Skuas were damaged by the blasts and had to ditch..." (Wiki). (U-Boat 2 : Skuas 0)
(Do not mock, Vlad's priceless YouTube (to appear later) shows two VV (IAF) in a 45 degree dive in formation ! Hopefully only with practice bombs).
Some people learn the hard way. We soon worked out that 2,000 ft intervals (5 secs) apart was about right (and much safer !) They were out of service by '41, so before our time.
And they: "......sank the German cruiser Königsberg in Bergen harbour during Operation Weserübung, the German invasion of Norway....." (Wiki).
But with half the power, it was close to a VV in performance (Wiki, VV Mk.I)
"Maximum speed: 275 mph at 11,000 ft
Cruise speed: 235 mph
Range: 1,400 miles "
In your dreams ! (More like 220 max, 160 cruise, 400 mi).
--------------------------------
megan (#19),
Good on 'em for hanging on to those Spitfires ! And what wonderful shots from Dick Simpson ! (seen 'em all before, but never of such quality):
#1 Note gun ports in wing.
#2 What a monstrous great cannon (the 0.50 Browning) How much room was left for the gunner ? Now if that fell off its mounting (as some of the twin 0.303s did in the dive in the early days), and landed on your face (or on the back of your neck, if you were facing forward), it'd make your eyes water a bit.
#3 Note fictitious "bomblets". There seems to have been no standard size white "roundel" (ours were much smaller - perhaps we were short of white paint. Look at the wing - is there an AoI or not (you see how hard it is).
#4 Gun Ports again. Some Mk.IVs had 3x0.50 a side, others only two. All Mks.I-III had two 0.300/303, our 0.303s had flash eliminators on the muzzles. Don't think the US 0.300s had them.
#5 Vlad's (the Impaler ?) famous YouTube again. Chugalug2 found it for me early on (and I've wasted a lot of time trying to trace his Post ['Search' being as much use as a chocolate teapot], and the queue is growing, and I must go on). This must have been taken privately (gross breach of wartime security !) by an IAF student with a home cine-camera, most of it probably at the OTU in Peshawar; it is a montage and there is footage later which may be operational.
When it first appeared (on "Pilot's Brevet" Thread), there was a lot of discussion about it based on Chugalug's original Post (which would be useful here but I can't find it).
Now I think you asked the question as to whether the size of the gun ports in the wing could indicate the calibre of the weapon. AFAIK, no. I was told that the 0.300s/303s (well back in the wing) fired down a long alloy "Blast Tube", at a guess 2½ in dia., the gun port was that size. A 0.50 would still have plenty of room, so the tubes and gun ports were all the same size.
---------------------------------------
BBad (#23),
"In Australia, the RAAF received 342 Vengeances, all of which were delivered from the US through Lend-Lease, and many of which were diverted by the British Purchasing Commission from RAF contracts":
"99 x A-31 Vengeance Mk.I/IA all Northrop-built and ex RAF contracts – A27-1 to A27-15 V-72 Mk.I (in
AN853 to AN898 block)";
On 110 Sqdn in India/Burma I flew AN862, and on 8 (IAF) Sqdn AN893, so one or two of that batch slipped out to us.
"and A-31-NO A27-16 to A27-99 Mk.IA (EZ800 to EZ999 block)"
On 110 Sqdn I flew EZ834, EZ862, EZ868, and EZ891. On 8 (IAF) Sqdn, I flew EZ811, EZ894, EZ913 and EZ993, so that 'block' lost a few in transit as well!
"122 x A-31 Mk.II and Mk.IIA, A27-200 to A27-321, either Vultee-built (with RAF AN serials up to AN837) or Northrop-built (AF serials)".
On 110 Sqdn I flew mostlty ANs and one or two APs, but no AFs. On 8 Sqdn it was nearly all EZs and one or two ANs.
From mid-'44, the FB and FD series (Mk.IIIs - A-31s) started coming out, AFAIK none served operationally (nor any of the Mk.IVs - A-35s, for that matter).
It illustrates the almost impossible task of keeping track of every single aircraft in a major war.
Danny.
PS: We were perfectly happy with our green/brown camouflage: it worked fine ! D.
-------------------------------------
MPN11 (#24),
There was never any doubt that EZ999 was a Mk.IA - the question was whether what we were looking at was EZ999, or some impostor pretending to be EZ999 !
Danny.
--------------------------------------
Slow Flyer (#25),
Welcome aboard ! (and also into "Gaining an RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread - the best-loved Thread on Military Aviation) - we'd be happy to hear from you there - at the moment it's slipped off the radar into Page 2 of Mil.Aviation.
If you are who I guess you are, you are the man who can put us out of our misery ! (but remember, strict Anonymity is the name of the game here - so Slow Flyer and BBad, suggest you take down the Christian name(s) straight away).
There are so many questions I'd like to ask, and will ask you on "Brevet" Thread in a few days, but not now - we have enough on our plates to be going on with. Remember that I've never even seen a Mk.IV ! - all my time was on Is, IIs and IIIs.
So the Great EZ999 Mystery is solved at last; I can pipe down now and rest on my oars. My thanks to all who have helped me on this three-year old quest. EZ999 lives still in Narellan - long may it remain so, as a standing reproach to an Air Force which commissioned it, bought it, used it in a desperate time and then turned its back on it.
"Put not your hope in princes !"
Cheers, Danny42C.
Nunc dimittis.
---------------------------------
Bbad,
'Fraid so ! Thanks for your help,
Danny.
I thought I might get one or two "bites", then the thing would die out. I'd made my point, and that would be that. Now we've got 23 Posts and 3000+ hits in 48 hours. There are so many hares running now that I can't keep up. I'll have to put my two cent's worth in in Post order, one at a time, until I catch up. And please remember:
Three years ago I wrote ('Pilot's Brevet', p.128 #2560): "A great deal of what follows is no more than hearsay from those days. I had no means then, and have no means now, of verifying what I was told".
This was in the days when I hadn't yet realised what a mine of information lay untapped in Google/Wiki.
-----------------------
First off is:
BBad (#16):
"its "bottle-green" and earth camouflage just looked a bit suss". But it was first-class against a jungle background.
---------------------------------
chevvron (#17): "Wasn't the Blackburn Skua originally a dive bomber?"
Yes,
"...... was being shelled by U-30 and all three dived to attack the submarine, which quickly dived to safety. Two of the Skuas were damaged by the blasts and had to ditch..." (Wiki). (U-Boat 2 : Skuas 0)
(Do not mock, Vlad's priceless YouTube (to appear later) shows two VV (IAF) in a 45 degree dive in formation ! Hopefully only with practice bombs).
Some people learn the hard way. We soon worked out that 2,000 ft intervals (5 secs) apart was about right (and much safer !) They were out of service by '41, so before our time.
And they: "......sank the German cruiser Königsberg in Bergen harbour during Operation Weserübung, the German invasion of Norway....." (Wiki).
But with half the power, it was close to a VV in performance (Wiki, VV Mk.I)
"Maximum speed: 275 mph at 11,000 ft
Cruise speed: 235 mph
Range: 1,400 miles "
In your dreams ! (More like 220 max, 160 cruise, 400 mi).
--------------------------------
megan (#19),
Good on 'em for hanging on to those Spitfires ! And what wonderful shots from Dick Simpson ! (seen 'em all before, but never of such quality):
#1 Note gun ports in wing.
#2 What a monstrous great cannon (the 0.50 Browning) How much room was left for the gunner ? Now if that fell off its mounting (as some of the twin 0.303s did in the dive in the early days), and landed on your face (or on the back of your neck, if you were facing forward), it'd make your eyes water a bit.
#3 Note fictitious "bomblets". There seems to have been no standard size white "roundel" (ours were much smaller - perhaps we were short of white paint. Look at the wing - is there an AoI or not (you see how hard it is).
#4 Gun Ports again. Some Mk.IVs had 3x0.50 a side, others only two. All Mks.I-III had two 0.300/303, our 0.303s had flash eliminators on the muzzles. Don't think the US 0.300s had them.
#5 Vlad's (the Impaler ?) famous YouTube again. Chugalug2 found it for me early on (and I've wasted a lot of time trying to trace his Post ['Search' being as much use as a chocolate teapot], and the queue is growing, and I must go on). This must have been taken privately (gross breach of wartime security !) by an IAF student with a home cine-camera, most of it probably at the OTU in Peshawar; it is a montage and there is footage later which may be operational.
When it first appeared (on "Pilot's Brevet" Thread), there was a lot of discussion about it based on Chugalug's original Post (which would be useful here but I can't find it).
Now I think you asked the question as to whether the size of the gun ports in the wing could indicate the calibre of the weapon. AFAIK, no. I was told that the 0.300s/303s (well back in the wing) fired down a long alloy "Blast Tube", at a guess 2½ in dia., the gun port was that size. A 0.50 would still have plenty of room, so the tubes and gun ports were all the same size.
---------------------------------------
BBad (#23),
"In Australia, the RAAF received 342 Vengeances, all of which were delivered from the US through Lend-Lease, and many of which were diverted by the British Purchasing Commission from RAF contracts":
"99 x A-31 Vengeance Mk.I/IA all Northrop-built and ex RAF contracts – A27-1 to A27-15 V-72 Mk.I (in
AN853 to AN898 block)";
On 110 Sqdn in India/Burma I flew AN862, and on 8 (IAF) Sqdn AN893, so one or two of that batch slipped out to us.
"and A-31-NO A27-16 to A27-99 Mk.IA (EZ800 to EZ999 block)"
On 110 Sqdn I flew EZ834, EZ862, EZ868, and EZ891. On 8 (IAF) Sqdn, I flew EZ811, EZ894, EZ913 and EZ993, so that 'block' lost a few in transit as well!
"122 x A-31 Mk.II and Mk.IIA, A27-200 to A27-321, either Vultee-built (with RAF AN serials up to AN837) or Northrop-built (AF serials)".
On 110 Sqdn I flew mostlty ANs and one or two APs, but no AFs. On 8 Sqdn it was nearly all EZs and one or two ANs.
From mid-'44, the FB and FD series (Mk.IIIs - A-31s) started coming out, AFAIK none served operationally (nor any of the Mk.IVs - A-35s, for that matter).
It illustrates the almost impossible task of keeping track of every single aircraft in a major war.
Danny.
PS: We were perfectly happy with our green/brown camouflage: it worked fine ! D.
-------------------------------------
MPN11 (#24),
There was never any doubt that EZ999 was a Mk.IA - the question was whether what we were looking at was EZ999, or some impostor pretending to be EZ999 !
Danny.
--------------------------------------
Slow Flyer (#25),
Welcome aboard ! (and also into "Gaining an RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread - the best-loved Thread on Military Aviation) - we'd be happy to hear from you there - at the moment it's slipped off the radar into Page 2 of Mil.Aviation.
If you are who I guess you are, you are the man who can put us out of our misery ! (but remember, strict Anonymity is the name of the game here - so Slow Flyer and BBad, suggest you take down the Christian name(s) straight away).
There are so many questions I'd like to ask, and will ask you on "Brevet" Thread in a few days, but not now - we have enough on our plates to be going on with. Remember that I've never even seen a Mk.IV ! - all my time was on Is, IIs and IIIs.
So the Great EZ999 Mystery is solved at last; I can pipe down now and rest on my oars. My thanks to all who have helped me on this three-year old quest. EZ999 lives still in Narellan - long may it remain so, as a standing reproach to an Air Force which commissioned it, bought it, used it in a desperate time and then turned its back on it.
"Put not your hope in princes !"
Cheers, Danny42C.
Nunc dimittis.
---------------------------------
Bbad,
'Fraid so ! Thanks for your help,
Danny.
The idea that the Vengeances came in crates is a bit far fetched. My father was a flight mechanic at 3AD Amberley and assembled some Vengeance aircraft among others which were brought from Brisbane docks sans outer wings not in "crates". The Vengeance is a very large aircraft about the size of an Avenger.
Thanks for the thread Danny. I never realised until now the paucity of information available on the VV. The aircraft gets absolutely no mention in either "Janes - Fighting Aircraft of WWII" or "The Encyclopaedia of Aircraft Of WWII". Very little on the web as well. Has been an education into unsung participants of the conflict - yours and the airframe. Salute Sir.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,809
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
I have 6 assorted volumes on the desk with info on the VV 
EZ999 Bill of Laden
Adf serials on their message board has just shown the Bill of Laden, for three aircraft shipped from LA to Sydney (2 Stores Depot) in May 1943.
"3 cases Airplanes (3 Model A-31)". The aircraft are EZ997, EZ998 and EZ999.
Each aircraft in a case, weighing 19,700 LB.
"Lend Lease Authorization BSC No 2648."
"3 cases Airplanes (3 Model A-31)". The aircraft are EZ997, EZ998 and EZ999.
Each aircraft in a case, weighing 19,700 LB.
"Lend Lease Authorization BSC No 2648."
Guest
Posts: n/a
TBM-Legend,
If you can get hold of a copy of "Vengeance!", by Peter C. Smith, on page 127 he shows two photographs of the "crating" in progress at Northrop. Actually, it is clear that it was really "boxing", for which we paid $800 extra each on the British Contract aircraft.
That would translate as £200 then, or £10,000 today !
In 1939 you could get a decent new three-bedroom semi (oop North!) for £399, and a new 8 hp. Ford Anglia would run you £115.
Danny.
If you can get hold of a copy of "Vengeance!", by Peter C. Smith, on page 127 he shows two photographs of the "crating" in progress at Northrop. Actually, it is clear that it was really "boxing", for which we paid $800 extra each on the British Contract aircraft.
That would translate as £200 then, or £10,000 today !
In 1939 you could get a decent new three-bedroom semi (oop North!) for £399, and a new 8 hp. Ford Anglia would run you £115.
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 6th Aug 2015 at 22:22. Reason: Addn.
Guest
Posts: n/a
MPN11,
I think that Peter Smith's "Vengeance!" covers the ground pretty comprehensively. (The Brazilian River usually has one or two, but I wouldn't pay more than £10 for a decent 2/h copy).
But now that we've got the "Horse's Mouth" with us (so to speak), we should be able to get the 'gen' !
Danny.
I think that Peter Smith's "Vengeance!" covers the ground pretty comprehensively. (The Brazilian River usually has one or two, but I wouldn't pay more than £10 for a decent 2/h copy).
But now that we've got the "Horse's Mouth" with us (so to speak), we should be able to get the 'gen' !
Danny.
Danny,
I don't know if Slow Flyer will like being referred to as a horse! But with his useful input here he has been a thoroughbred.
Interesting aspect of the Bill of Lading, which might fill in some gaps of its early life. In May 1943 it was shipped to Sydney, to No 2 Stores Depot (2SD) in its crate. The SD was in the Sydney suburb of Regent's Park. It then appears to have remained in its crate.
Slow Flyer reports: "The photos I've seen of the VV during it's time at the Tech College show it was overall silver (possibly devoid of paint)."
So at what stage was it stripped of its RAF’s 'Temperate Land Scheme' camouflage and 'Type A1' roundels? Not at 2SD, this activity is beyond their remit - it would be the job of an Aircraft Depot. The local AD was 2AD at RAAF Richmond, on Sydney's north-western outskirts. So would the crate be transported out from Regent's Park to Richmond, with EZ999 removed from the crate, paint stripped, and repacked to then be transported back into Sydney to the Tech College in Ultimo? Considering that this would have been gifted, I don't think the RAAF would have gone to this much effort.
So it was probably stripped of its paint by the Sydney Technical College students, and possibly as part of their syllabus. Perhaps done in smallish sections for each subsequent class. Who knows? But this Mk.IA's early history is coming together.
Edit: I have erred, by assuming that EZ999 remained stored at 2SD, in fact according to its history it went to 2AD in 1943, presumably on arrival by ship in Sydney ex-LA.
Rec 2AD ex USA 20/06/43.
Rec 2AD 30/10/44.
Issued 2CRD ex 2AD for storage 12/02/46.
Authorised for write off 16/05/46.
Rec 2AD ex 2CRD 05/06/46.
Approval to transfer to RANFAA for ground instruction 27/04/48. Cancelled 11/06/48.
Passed to DAP 24/06/48. Issued to DAP 17/09/48. SOC 06/09/49.
So some storage at 2CRD (which I assume to be 2 Crash Repair Depot), location? Possibly based at Richmond as well. Its history says "passed to DAP (Dept of Aircraft Production)1948" - but this might have been a paperwork transfer which often happened, and not a physical move from Richmond. Struck off Charge (SOC) 6 SEP 1949 probably represents the time of gifting to Ultimo.
I don't know if Slow Flyer will like being referred to as a horse! But with his useful input here he has been a thoroughbred.
Interesting aspect of the Bill of Lading, which might fill in some gaps of its early life. In May 1943 it was shipped to Sydney, to No 2 Stores Depot (2SD) in its crate. The SD was in the Sydney suburb of Regent's Park. It then appears to have remained in its crate.
Slow Flyer reports: "The photos I've seen of the VV during it's time at the Tech College show it was overall silver (possibly devoid of paint)."
So at what stage was it stripped of its RAF’s 'Temperate Land Scheme' camouflage and 'Type A1' roundels? Not at 2SD, this activity is beyond their remit - it would be the job of an Aircraft Depot. The local AD was 2AD at RAAF Richmond, on Sydney's north-western outskirts. So would the crate be transported out from Regent's Park to Richmond, with EZ999 removed from the crate, paint stripped, and repacked to then be transported back into Sydney to the Tech College in Ultimo? Considering that this would have been gifted, I don't think the RAAF would have gone to this much effort.
So it was probably stripped of its paint by the Sydney Technical College students, and possibly as part of their syllabus. Perhaps done in smallish sections for each subsequent class. Who knows? But this Mk.IA's early history is coming together.
Edit: I have erred, by assuming that EZ999 remained stored at 2SD, in fact according to its history it went to 2AD in 1943, presumably on arrival by ship in Sydney ex-LA.
Rec 2AD ex USA 20/06/43.
Rec 2AD 30/10/44.
Issued 2CRD ex 2AD for storage 12/02/46.
Authorised for write off 16/05/46.
Rec 2AD ex 2CRD 05/06/46.
Approval to transfer to RANFAA for ground instruction 27/04/48. Cancelled 11/06/48.
Passed to DAP 24/06/48. Issued to DAP 17/09/48. SOC 06/09/49.
So some storage at 2CRD (which I assume to be 2 Crash Repair Depot), location? Possibly based at Richmond as well. Its history says "passed to DAP (Dept of Aircraft Production)1948" - but this might have been a paperwork transfer which often happened, and not a physical move from Richmond. Struck off Charge (SOC) 6 SEP 1949 probably represents the time of gifting to Ultimo.
Last edited by BBadanov; 7th Aug 2015 at 00:43. Reason: 2ad storage
Guest
Posts: n/a
Exeunt Omnes.
BBad (#28),
No, we won't close it down, but just let it "wither on the vine", I think.
But it's a bit like Charles II, when he said that: "He had been an unconscionable time dying; but he hoped they would excuse it !
Danny.
Edit: Didn't see your last ("Don't Assume, Check" !) Yes, Slow Flyer should have all the answers from now on ! D.
No, we won't close it down, but just let it "wither on the vine", I think.
But it's a bit like Charles II, when he said that: "He had been an unconscionable time dying; but he hoped they would excuse it !
Danny.
Edit: Didn't see your last ("Don't Assume, Check" !) Yes, Slow Flyer should have all the answers from now on ! D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 7th Aug 2015 at 00:29. Reason: Addn.
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Antipodes
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Many Questions!
BBad, Danny, et al,
I have always assumed the original paint was stripped or the aircraft repainted silver by Sydney Tech. The Meteor F8 currently also held by Camden Museum of Aviation, A77-868, was repainted silver whilst in the care of the Tech College, so that may give us a clue. Of additional note: I once commented to Harold that the Foliage Green on EZ999 looked a little too blue. He promptly went into the shed and came back with an original wartime tin of RAAF Foliage Green paint....end of discussion.
Cheers SF
I have always assumed the original paint was stripped or the aircraft repainted silver by Sydney Tech. The Meteor F8 currently also held by Camden Museum of Aviation, A77-868, was repainted silver whilst in the care of the Tech College, so that may give us a clue. Of additional note: I once commented to Harold that the Foliage Green on EZ999 looked a little too blue. He promptly went into the shed and came back with an original wartime tin of RAAF Foliage Green paint....end of discussion.
Cheers SF
Last edited by Slow Flyer; 7th Aug 2015 at 22:27. Reason: Double post.
Guest
Posts: n/a
"The Evil that men do lives after them.... " Shakespeare; Julius Caesar
Slow Flyer,
Will put this on on both "Wil the real EZ999..." and "Gaining a Pilot's Brevet..." Threads, suggest we use the latter (as the former must surely be on the way out).
Is this acceptable for just this once, please, Mr. Moderator ?(he's new and I'm not sure which he may be watching)
When we first heard of you, it was of: "LAC Wayne Brown from 77 Squadron Engine Section at RAAF Base Williamstown, who has specialised on the Vengeance". Now you tell us: "I know I'm due for my bi-annual aircrew medical..." Let's have your story ASAP, please !
Now, as regards EZ999,
As it escaped scrapping, it would seem that you Australians took a more cavalier view of your contractual obligations under Lend Lease, for it would have made no sense to pay good money to the US to buy back an ex-Lend Lease VV (one of the 46 EZs which you got), to be used as an instructional airframe - when at the same time you had your pick of the more than twice as many (123) "British Contract" ANs and AFs (already paid for by the British taxpayer) which had been passed on to you to do as you liked with, and most of which would surely have been in the scrapyards at the same time as the EZs.
Did Harold Thomas ever say anything about this ?
Of course, by the time it got to the Technical College, there would be far more of the later Mk.IV bits lying about than of the earlier Mks.I and II, and the studes went to town with them ! (I don't think you got any IIIs, but we did in India), I flew my first (FB956), after they patched me up, on 8 (IAF) in July,'44, just before they closed our business down for good.
Now it is time to say that the Mks.I to III, (and the 'A's) were all the same aeroplane. The dodging about had nothing to do with it, they were merely flags to show who built the thing, and who paid for it. The US had the right idea: they simply called the whole lot A-31s (and all Mk.IVs A-35s), and had done with it.
The A-31s all looked the same, flew the same, dived the same (I never dived a III, but no reason to think it would be any different), had the same tankage, the same bomb load, and the same armament. The only mechanical change was made very early on, when they put in an EDP for the 20-gallon Trap Tank to replace the electric fuel pump originally fitted. This was met with general rejoicing, especially by the back seat folk (who now had no more wobble-pumping to do).
Come to think of it, they had nothing else at all to do. Any Pilot with any sense did his own navigation; the gunners had no live training at all on this installation, so it was a mercy that we were never (AFAIK) attacked. But it was nice to have somebody to talk (all right. Shout) to on the trips.
Cheers, Danny.
PS: Cooda Shooda is in your part of the world, I am sure that he and his "Warbirdz" would welcome your input, as a bunch of them are on the (hopeless, IMHO) self-imposed task of looking for enough bits to put another A-31 together (to rival yours ?). Don't think they'll get far, as you will have hoovered them all up yourself already. D.
Will put this on on both "Wil the real EZ999..." and "Gaining a Pilot's Brevet..." Threads, suggest we use the latter (as the former must surely be on the way out).
Is this acceptable for just this once, please, Mr. Moderator ?(he's new and I'm not sure which he may be watching)
When we first heard of you, it was of: "LAC Wayne Brown from 77 Squadron Engine Section at RAAF Base Williamstown, who has specialised on the Vengeance". Now you tell us: "I know I'm due for my bi-annual aircrew medical..." Let's have your story ASAP, please !
Now, as regards EZ999,
As it escaped scrapping, it would seem that you Australians took a more cavalier view of your contractual obligations under Lend Lease, for it would have made no sense to pay good money to the US to buy back an ex-Lend Lease VV (one of the 46 EZs which you got), to be used as an instructional airframe - when at the same time you had your pick of the more than twice as many (123) "British Contract" ANs and AFs (already paid for by the British taxpayer) which had been passed on to you to do as you liked with, and most of which would surely have been in the scrapyards at the same time as the EZs.
Did Harold Thomas ever say anything about this ?
Of course, by the time it got to the Technical College, there would be far more of the later Mk.IV bits lying about than of the earlier Mks.I and II, and the studes went to town with them ! (I don't think you got any IIIs, but we did in India), I flew my first (FB956), after they patched me up, on 8 (IAF) in July,'44, just before they closed our business down for good.
Now it is time to say that the Mks.I to III, (and the 'A's) were all the same aeroplane. The dodging about had nothing to do with it, they were merely flags to show who built the thing, and who paid for it. The US had the right idea: they simply called the whole lot A-31s (and all Mk.IVs A-35s), and had done with it.
The A-31s all looked the same, flew the same, dived the same (I never dived a III, but no reason to think it would be any different), had the same tankage, the same bomb load, and the same armament. The only mechanical change was made very early on, when they put in an EDP for the 20-gallon Trap Tank to replace the electric fuel pump originally fitted. This was met with general rejoicing, especially by the back seat folk (who now had no more wobble-pumping to do).
Come to think of it, they had nothing else at all to do. Any Pilot with any sense did his own navigation; the gunners had no live training at all on this installation, so it was a mercy that we were never (AFAIK) attacked. But it was nice to have somebody to talk (all right. Shout) to on the trips.
Cheers, Danny.
PS: Cooda Shooda is in your part of the world, I am sure that he and his "Warbirdz" would welcome your input, as a bunch of them are on the (hopeless, IMHO) self-imposed task of looking for enough bits to put another A-31 together (to rival yours ?). Don't think they'll get far, as you will have hoovered them all up yourself already. D.
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Antipodes
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Many Questions!
BBad, Danny, et al,
Thanks for the warm welcome.
A few more answers for you: 2 Central Recovery Depot (2CRD) was a spin-off unit from 2AD (2 Aircraft Depot) and was also based at Richmond NSW with detachments at Mascot & Mount Druitt. At the conclusion of the War the unit was responsible for storing, classifying and preparing equipment for either retention or in many cases disposal.
A read through the 2AD records for mid-1943 and they show that there was a considerable effort expended in receiving, erecting and dispatching VV aircraft during the period. According to it's Form EE88, EZ999 was received by the depot ex USA in June '43. From 2AD records qty 4 VV were received for erection (what a great word to descibe bolting an aircraft together) at that time. By Oct '43 2AD state in their monthly Unit History Report that there were no VV awaiting erection although several were in the course of erection. If this is correct (and errors did occur in these reports) 2AD must have at least started to assemble the aircraft. Unfortunately quatities and not serial numbers are refered to in the monthly reports. Starting assembly makes some sense when you consider that at this point the RAAF was trying to get three squadrons equipped with the type and worked-up in preparation for deployment to New Guinea. I don't think it makes sense to leave one in the box. We know it never made it to the flightline as the EE88 records no servicing was ever performed on the aircraft. The EE88 for my current steed (DH82A) is several cards long and records every servicing ever performed on the aircraft during it's RAAF service, including during it's time in storage pending disposal.
Of note; its interesting that it wasn't until October '44, some 12 months later, that EZ999 was transfered into 2AD stores section. Was it left to languish in the back of the hangar for 12 months?
Cheers SF
Thanks for the warm welcome.
A few more answers for you: 2 Central Recovery Depot (2CRD) was a spin-off unit from 2AD (2 Aircraft Depot) and was also based at Richmond NSW with detachments at Mascot & Mount Druitt. At the conclusion of the War the unit was responsible for storing, classifying and preparing equipment for either retention or in many cases disposal.
A read through the 2AD records for mid-1943 and they show that there was a considerable effort expended in receiving, erecting and dispatching VV aircraft during the period. According to it's Form EE88, EZ999 was received by the depot ex USA in June '43. From 2AD records qty 4 VV were received for erection (what a great word to descibe bolting an aircraft together) at that time. By Oct '43 2AD state in their monthly Unit History Report that there were no VV awaiting erection although several were in the course of erection. If this is correct (and errors did occur in these reports) 2AD must have at least started to assemble the aircraft. Unfortunately quatities and not serial numbers are refered to in the monthly reports. Starting assembly makes some sense when you consider that at this point the RAAF was trying to get three squadrons equipped with the type and worked-up in preparation for deployment to New Guinea. I don't think it makes sense to leave one in the box. We know it never made it to the flightline as the EE88 records no servicing was ever performed on the aircraft. The EE88 for my current steed (DH82A) is several cards long and records every servicing ever performed on the aircraft during it's RAAF service, including during it's time in storage pending disposal.
Of note; its interesting that it wasn't until October '44, some 12 months later, that EZ999 was transfered into 2AD stores section. Was it left to languish in the back of the hangar for 12 months?
Cheers SF