Gnat down at CarFest
Pittsextra, I think that he is hinting at accidents like the G-TBRD T-33 one. The operator of the T-33 changed their experience requirements to that which Athonite alludes to for their remaining F-86.
It's on the AAIB website. Different accident, but an interesting slant.
I had a look at the accident video last night. In the last second or so, whilst in the left turn, the aircraft appears to roll further left to about 150 deg bank. I guess this is what others have seen and say that the aircraft appears to have departed/stalles in the last few seconds?
Still tragic for all concerned, whatever the outcome. He sounded like a talented all-rounder.
B Word
It's on the AAIB website. Different accident, but an interesting slant.
I had a look at the accident video last night. In the last second or so, whilst in the left turn, the aircraft appears to roll further left to about 150 deg bank. I guess this is what others have seen and say that the aircraft appears to have departed/stalles in the last few seconds?
Still tragic for all concerned, whatever the outcome. He sounded like a talented all-rounder.
B Word
Leon,
Ref your grammatical comments to Athonite, isn't 'rigorous' the right way to spell that word?
(donning flak hat now)
Ref your grammatical comments to Athonite, isn't 'rigorous' the right way to spell that word?
(donning flak hat now)
Last edited by XV490; 3rd Aug 2015 at 09:09.
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Athonite does make a point regarding the quite considerable spread of experiences of the guys in this team, something that will almost certainly now be closely scrutinised.
However, the two experienced FJ guys are well know to many on this forum; I cannot imagine for one minute they would condone and undertake activity such as close formation (including take-off) and team aerobatics without being 100% certain as to the competence and abilities of those other "less experienced" team members. If there was even a hint of doubt I just cannot see them getting involved in such activity, why would they?
Regardless, it's a very sad day for all involved and sincere condolences go to family, friends and fellow team members.
However, the two experienced FJ guys are well know to many on this forum; I cannot imagine for one minute they would condone and undertake activity such as close formation (including take-off) and team aerobatics without being 100% certain as to the competence and abilities of those other "less experienced" team members. If there was even a hint of doubt I just cannot see them getting involved in such activity, why would they?
Regardless, it's a very sad day for all involved and sincere condolences go to family, friends and fellow team members.
Pittsextra, I think that he is hinting at accidents like the G-TBRD T-33 one. The operator of the T-33 changed their experience requirements to that which Athonite alludes to for their remaining F-86.
It's on the AAIB website. Different accident, but an interesting slant.
It's on the AAIB website. Different accident, but an interesting slant.
The current DA system is robust but sadly accidents happen. Its happened to company test pilots displaying fast jets, its happened to test pilots displaying vintage aircraft, its happened to World Unlimited aerobatic champions flying home and so it goes.... RIP.
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I'm not sure if anyone else has seen it however there is another video somewhere which shows the footage from a few seconds earlier, I'll see if I can find it.
Edit, see here.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/avia...s-CarFest.html
Hard to see what's going on due to the quality but it looks like it starts with the aircraft performing an aileron roll which looks normal, it then rolls to the left but overbanks quite significantly, looked like about 120-130 degs which is then corrected back to 90 degs but is pulling by this point, its from here the other footage starts and you know the rest. In the slow motion however in the latter stages it looks like he very briefly starts to roll to the right immediately before the rapid roll to the left.
Never flown the Gnat however is there a failure more which leaves the controls still boosted but lacking artificial feel?
Regards
UA
Edit, see here.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/avia...s-CarFest.html
Hard to see what's going on due to the quality but it looks like it starts with the aircraft performing an aileron roll which looks normal, it then rolls to the left but overbanks quite significantly, looked like about 120-130 degs which is then corrected back to 90 degs but is pulling by this point, its from here the other footage starts and you know the rest. In the slow motion however in the latter stages it looks like he very briefly starts to roll to the right immediately before the rapid roll to the left.
Never flown the Gnat however is there a failure more which leaves the controls still boosted but lacking artificial feel?
Regards
UA
Last edited by Unusual Attitude; 3rd Aug 2015 at 10:42.
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I'm surprised about those casting aspersions on the guys experience - even if he's only got as far as the hawk that would prepare him for jet aerobatics in this thing ?
The aircraft looks complicated and no doubt complex, I'd be more interested in recency and hrs on type - if he was working full time in the city was he very current. Or not ?
Either way it's a tragedy.
The aircraft looks complicated and no doubt complex, I'd be more interested in recency and hrs on type - if he was working full time in the city was he very current. Or not ?
Either way it's a tragedy.
Looking at the video clip again, I was struck with the same thought as when I first saw it: structural failure. Very difficult to make out detail on the video, but the aircraft seemed to get so suddenly "out of shape" that it is hard to imagine this could be achieved with only control inputs.
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With the caveat I'm not a qualified pilot albeit with a little bit of UAS flying I can add that I saw the incident in person and was standing at a different angle to the one the videos are showing which gave me a slightly different visual perspective. Just after the syncro pair crossed over the aircraft was turning tightly to the left with a bank of maybe 60 degrees. I was tail on to the aircraft with a raised vantage point. The aircraft clearly jinked left and then right hard in quick succession as if the pilot was struggling with something. It looked odd because until then all of the turns had been smooth and I got the impression that something was wrong. Immediately after it dropped down and you have seen the rest on video.
My thoughts are with the pilot and his friends and family of course. Tragic.
My thoughts are with the pilot and his friends and family of course. Tragic.
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Was there...
I was there watching from the ground - to me looked like another high speed pass - I watched the pass with the 2 aircraft opposing then turned to say something to my kids and saw the fireball, so didn't see the final part of the run. What to me was notable was there was no smoke from him (they'd been running smoke on each of the passes before and his partner had smoke on).
The angles/trees at Oulton Park make it very difficult to judge AGL for someone in the crowd. I know in previous years I've watched other displays from different vantage points on different days and seen very different apparent heights for the same routine.
What will live with me was watching the other aircraft circling knowing what had happened until the first responders got there. (There was Cheshire Police on the ground doing displays at carfest who left within seconds so not long at all).
Organisers did a great job of ensuring the show went on - but also held a minutes silence and a number of other speeches remembering him.
RIP.
The angles/trees at Oulton Park make it very difficult to judge AGL for someone in the crowd. I know in previous years I've watched other displays from different vantage points on different days and seen very different apparent heights for the same routine.
What will live with me was watching the other aircraft circling knowing what had happened until the first responders got there. (There was Cheshire Police on the ground doing displays at carfest who left within seconds so not long at all).
Organisers did a great job of ensuring the show went on - but also held a minutes silence and a number of other speeches remembering him.
RIP.
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I spoke to a friend who was at Carfest. She has no particular knowledge of aircraft but described what she saw as the aircraft going very abruptly and obviously from controlled flight to uncontrolled. I think "skidding" was the word she used.
As an aside; she was full of praise for the organisers who she thought dealt with the incident very well, especially with regard to all the kids present.
As an aside; she was full of praise for the organisers who she thought dealt with the incident very well, especially with regard to all the kids present.
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Re Video at Telegraph Web site
Unusual Attitude:
In the early evening on the day of the incident, a rather clearer version of the first segment of http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/avia...s-CarFest.html was out there on the Web. I can't remember who published it (Telegraph??) and now I can't find it via Google videos or You Tube.
I watched it half a dozen times, because of an attention-arresting "flicker" at the beginning. My impression was that the aircraft rolled rapidily right-left-right-left before it settled into it's final left-hand turn, the flicker effect being due to its more-brighly-lit upper surfaces being exposed and then hidden twice in rapid succession (total duration of 1 or 2 sec).
The video now on the Telegraph Web site consists of at least three segments spliced together, the first segment being now shown only in half frame (I saw it full-frame). Perhaps the Telegraph is still has the orginal.
In the early evening on the day of the incident, a rather clearer version of the first segment of http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/avia...s-CarFest.html was out there on the Web. I can't remember who published it (Telegraph??) and now I can't find it via Google videos or You Tube.
I watched it half a dozen times, because of an attention-arresting "flicker" at the beginning. My impression was that the aircraft rolled rapidily right-left-right-left before it settled into it's final left-hand turn, the flicker effect being due to its more-brighly-lit upper surfaces being exposed and then hidden twice in rapid succession (total duration of 1 or 2 sec).
The video now on the Telegraph Web site consists of at least three segments spliced together, the first segment being now shown only in half frame (I saw it full-frame). Perhaps the Telegraph is still has the orginal.
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Just possibly momentary disorientation recognised too late for sccessful recovery. Or, perhaps rather unlikely, some roll/yaw coupling, although the only time I can remember that biting anyone was when the Arrows used to remove the fuses that limited aileron deflection over a certain IAS (can't remember what).
).
pontifex, see this thread: http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...rate-fuse.html from 13 years ago to learn more about Fuse 13 and the Gnat roll rate.
