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Gnat down at CarFest

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Gnat down at CarFest

Old 2nd Aug 2015, 01:20
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I was just trying to post the very same Albert but you put it better than I could.
My thoughts are with all concerned, a sad day.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 01:46
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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That's my home area, and I was having lunch near the racetrack just a few weeks ago on my last visit to the UK, so this hits home - literally.

Looks to me like he had no turbine - what's the hydraulic dependency for flight controls like in the Gnat ?

Terrible, absolutely terrible.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 03:05
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Well, the BBC's "expert", Julian Bray, is now digging himself an even deeper hole.

Not content with having completely got it wrong about the Gnat being used by the Red Arrows and as a front-line fighter internationally, he's now saying that the particular Gnat in question was never intended to be used by display teams, and that the pilot in question got his civilian display certifications years after leaving the RAF (he's even using italics for emphasis).

As per my original post on p1 of this thread, the inferences that can be made from these two comments do no justice to anyone.

One can only hope the the moronic BBC keeps an eye on these forums and, for once, makes a good decision to desist from relying on this man for soundbites.

His website:

http://julianbrayrecessionbuster0794....********.com/
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 04:48
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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The JP incident report regarding the seat incident is here. https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...BVEG_07-94.pdf
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 06:22
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Sean Maffett has just put the Gnat's record straight on BBC News (0715). He was also interviewed yesterday about the Phenom crash at Blackbushe.

Here's hoping Auntie calls on Sean more often. A sober, sensible, informed and experienced voice.


Addendum: I see it should be Sqn Ldr Maffett, a former nav (and BBC radio producer/writer/presenter). That explains a lot.

Last edited by XV490; 2nd Aug 2015 at 07:44. Reason: Addendum
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 06:37
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Angel

Likewise Fonsini, our UK pad is in the village to the south of the track.

Very close to home in all aspects of the phrase.

Condolences to all those who knew and loved Kev.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 07:16
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Yesterday's headlines were stating 'RAF Ace' when today's is saying an 'RAF Career from 1998-2001'. Anyone know which it is, as it can't be both? Did he fail his OCU and leave?

I never met him, but he sounds like he led an incredible life - Cambridge grad, Boat Race winner, a short time flying Tucanos/Hawks (or maybe more?), a successful career in the banking sector and getting a DA to fly in a civvy jet formation team.

RIP
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 07:25
  #48 (permalink)  
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And today in the torygraph A Stunt pilot!!!!!
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 09:07
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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tartare,

I think it has an all moving tail normally and elevators which can be unlocked for manual control. I'm sure BEagle will be along to explain.

And as for Julian Bray.... he seems to be referring to a different aircraft, for which he can't even get the registration right - and who exactly are the Yellow Jackets??

(Working link - JulianBrayWebsite)
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 09:15
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Are we looking at G-LOC here guys and gals?
That did spring to mind.

I had my own G-LOC experience in the 1970s while flying a Harrier GR3 back to base from a field deployment. After take-off from the site I had accelerated away, hard-turned starboard and reversed port all at about 4g. Pulling up into a wingover to come back for a site beat-up I blacked-out and came to as the nose was slicing down through the horizon at about 120 deg of bank. I rolled wings level and flew back to base at a sedate 2000ft and 400kts even opting for a practice PAR instead of a run-in and break. Nearly became a statistic that day at age 27. G-LOC is insidious and can occur at surprisingly low G. Fatigue plays its part I'm sure as does low blood sugar. It wasn't a great idea to go without breakfast as one of my contemporaries found out.

The other possibility is controls being snagged on flying kit. The Gnat is tiny. One didn't so much get into it as put it on. In the 70s RAF pilots wore internal G-suits underneath flying suits. External G-suits didn't come into use until later. I wonder if the control column snagged on something.

Last edited by Wingswinger; 2nd Aug 2015 at 10:37. Reason: Additional opinion.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 09:27
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Sean Maffett has just put the Gnat's record straight on BBC News ............... A sober, sensible, informed and experienced voice.
Agreed, but he also incorrectly said that the Red Arrows flew Gnats until the mid 90s.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 09:40
  #52 (permalink)  

 
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XV490 and spekesoftly - thanks for kind words!

Speke - you're quite right , I did say 'mid-90s'. I've no idea why - I had 1979 written down in front of me. Just shows that you (well, I at any rate) can say stupid things when live on the telly....

sean
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:09
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Gnat Pitch Control System

The Gnat does indeed have elevators, but in normal flight these are 'locked' to the tailplane. Therefore, any pitch input will move what is effectively an all-moving tailplane.

Pitch inputs from the control column are fed to the hydraulically powered tailplane actuator via a Cam mechanism and Q-gearing mechanism. The Cam mechanism simply alters the rate-of-change of output depending upon the input position; the further back the stick the greater the tailplane movement per degree of stick movement. The Q-gearing mechanism modifies the elevator gearing dependent upon Q, effectively IAS. An electrical-operated feel trimming system is also fitted.

A datum shift mechanism is also provided. Due to the large nose-down change of pitch caused by the undercarriage lowering, the system simply shifts the datum position of the pitch system as the undercarriage is lowered, i.e. applies a small nose-up input. Simple but effective.

In normal use the resulting pitch input is feed into the hydraulically powered tailplane actuator moving the tailplane and locked elevators as a single unit.

The elevators can be unlocked from the tailplane in flight by a lever in either cockpit. The elevators are now 'manually' controlled directly from the stick, i.e. with no hydraulic assistance, but the hydraulically powered tailplane continues to 'follow up' any pitch inputs. Following loss of hydraulic pressure, or manual selection of 'TAIL & AILN OFF', an accumulator will provide a very limited reserve of pressure before the tailplane system freezes leaving a limited amount of pitch control available directly through the now unlocked elevators. Limited trimming is now only available by a standby electric motor which trims the aircraft by moving the tailplane.

Depending upon configuration, i.e. IAS, gear up or down and the position of the tailplane, it is quite possible to run out of the rather limited elevator authority.

Following a loss of hydraulic pressure in normal flight it is imperative that the elevators are unlocked promptly as part of the STUPRECC drill.

I seem to recall a display board at RAF Valley in the ground school tea bar with the Gnat elevator system layed out in detail.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:11
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Without wishing to trivialise a serious subject, there's something very satisfactory about seeing a TV interview one minute, posting a comment on PPRuNe shortly afterwards, and then reading an honest reply from the man himself hardly ten minutes later! Thank you Sean.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:12
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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While it's always sad when a pilot loses his/her life, there are previous posts flagging up the pilot's RAF experience, while the press claim the pilot as ex RAF, ace, etc.. I'm not sure you can describe someone as an ex-RAF pilot, or RAF trained if he didn't gain his wings and complete OCU, that is a bit disrespectful to those you gained their wings and flew on operational squadrons with the RAF, RN and Army.

As to display authorisation, I would have though it is not wise, even to consider someone for DA, unless he has completed OCU and a tour with the RAF or RN, on a similar category of aircraft, it simply impossible that someone gain the experience that someone gains through a career in the military. You simply can not purchase military experience. My suggestion would be 1500 on fast jets in a military environment before DA is consider.

Having looked at the experience of the six Gnat display pilots the breakdown is as follows:

2 pilot's with military career background and one a very experienced test pilot, really no problems here.

1 Pilot, RAF (1998-2001), UAS, IOT and some flying on Tocano's and Hawks, but didn't progress onto OCU, question previously asked why?

3 Pilots, only military experience is UAS or AEF (Chipmunks, Gliders, Bulldog), with PPL, CPL, or ATPL civil qualifications background.

It Just started to make me wonder if this a rather exclusive gentlemen's flying club, and in terms of it's charitable status and the tax benefits, whether this group is or was more for the pilots benefits than a public benefit.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:13
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Sean/airsound,

I've done a few TV appearances myself (though I would never describe myself as an 'expert'), and it is surprising just how easy it is to 'misspeak' like that. And of course, once it's out there, it's out there.

Even with notes in front of you, it is a lot harder than it looks. Fair play for giving it a shot.

Best
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:19
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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and who exactly are the Yellow Jackets??
Another name for a particular species of Wasp.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:47
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Don't know about the Yellow Jackets but the Yellowjacks were the Gnat display team prior to the formation of the Red Arrows.

Yellowjacks - Royal Air Force Aerobatic Display Team

H Peacock,

Thanks for the memories. I'm still doing STUPRECC and CUBSTUNT in my sleep 40-odd years later!
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 11:00
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alber Ratman
Have a friend who is an armourer and also has a close association with the team. He says the seats were live ones. Quiet a few of the JPs flying also have live seats. However would a Folland seat have saved anyone in the circumstances of this accident?
I know the Gnat had Follands own seat design, but, I'm also aware that MB notified historic jet operators early this year that they were ceasing supply of items neccessary to maintain older MB seats, and as a result the RAAF grounded it's CAC Sabre a few months back once it's supply of seat parts had dried up. Temora have enough parts supply for the seat in 'Winston' for another couple of seasons, but that could well be grounded after that as well for the same reason.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 13:37
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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I Don't Want To Speculate

First, the main message must be sympathy for the pilot and his family and friends. Second, the 'experts' effect just won't go away, will it? Thank goodness Sean M fronted up (even though he's a navigator, for heaven's sake!) to put a sensible and informed view. (Greetings, Sean, not seen you since Linton).
Third - and for what it's worth - although I enjoyed the Gnat it had a poor reputation when I was training on it in the 1960s, with eleven serious incidents on my course of 12 students. It was quite unforgiving in some ways, with one of the nastier habits a massive change in feel following immediately after a hydraulics failure, amounting to what felt initially like seized controls, until you ran through the IAs. Not saying that's what happened here, though the symptoms are consistent with the tiny clip I've seen on TV.
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