Spits and Mossies only?

[Wander00]

Quite a few graves and memorials round this part of the world of crews that died bombing the U-boat pens at La Rochelle and St Nazaire

[rolling20]

Torque, not too sure where you get your facts from.
Bomber Command did drop leaflets / bomb Germany at night, with negligible results and losses. Losses did not become an issue until 1941 as the Kammhuber Line started to take its toll.
Seeing as the Mosquito didn't fly until November 1940 and wasn't available in decent quantities until 1943, its hard to see the role it could have played.
The Battle of the Atlantic was effectively over by the summer of 43 and the Battle of the Ruhr in Mar-Jul 43 was directed at German industry, a large part of which was supplying UBoat production. This battle alone took up 5% of Bomber Commands total sorties for WW2. Along with other raids that were specifically on yards and the devastating Operation Gomorrah in July 43, I would argue that in Bomber Commands early war, a substantial part of it was targeted at UBoat production.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Torque, not too sure where you get your facts from.
Bomber Command did drop leaflets / bomb Germany at night, with negligible results and losses. Losses did not become an issue until 1941 as the Kammhuber Line started to take its toll.
Seeing as the Mosquito didn't fly until November 1940 and wasn't available in decent quantities until 1943, its hard to see the role it could have played.
The Battle of the Atlantic was effectively over by the summer of 43 and the Battle of the Ruhr in Mar-Jul 43 was directed at German industry, a large part of which was supplying UBoat production. This battle alone took up 5% of Bomber Commands total sorties for WW2. Along with other raids that were specifically on yards and the devastating Operation Gomorrah in July 43, I would argue that in Bomber Commands early war, a substantial part of it was targeted at UBoat production.

I think that, in a strange way, we actually agree on much of this, and it's important to bear in mind that this whole thread is merely fantasy/speculation in any case!

Bomber Command did drop leaflets / bomb Germany at night, with negligible results and losses. Losses did not become an issue until 1941 as the Kammhuber Line started to take its toll.

I'm well aware of the leaflet raids and the early attempts to bomb Germany at night - which were a direct result of the heavy losses sustained in the early months of the war on daylight forays.

Seeing as the Mosquito didn't fly until November 1940 and wasn't available in decent quantities until 1943, its hard to see the role it could have played.

Well exactly! Perhaps one has to assume, for the fantasy nature of the thread, that both types would have been available from the start of the war.

The Battle of the Atlantic was effectively over by the summer of 43 and the Battle of the Ruhr in Mar-Jul 43 was directed at German industry, a large part of which was supplying UBoat production

I would observe that the Battle of the Atlantic absorbed a great deal of time and effort (and sacrifice) from both sides right up to the end of the war. But would you agree that, when we did start to prevail in the spring of 1943, what caused the U-boat offensive to falter at that crucial point was not lack of boats arriving from the factories, but rather the ability of Allied aircraft and ships to sink/restrict the effectiveness of the U-boats which were already at sea?

[Danny42C]

Don't forget the marvellous input of Ultra (Bletchley Park). I believe the U-boat commanders were required to pass a Position Report to the Kriegsmarine every 24 hours.

Once the codebreakers had broken into the German Naval "Enigma", this enormously simplified our task in the Battle of the Atlantic.

D.

[air pig]

t

Don't forget the marvellous input of Ultra (Bletchley Park). I believe the U-boat commanders were required to pass a Position Report to the Kriegsmarine every 24 hours.

Once the codebreakers had broken into the German Naval "Enigma", this enormously simplified our task in the Battle of the Atlantic.

Breaking Triton had a big impact but you have to figure in convoys and long range air support in that. There was a time lag in decrypting ultra material. As the war progressed the U-boatwaffe started to loose its most experienced commanders.

[Union Jack]

The Battle of the Atlantic was effectively over by the summer of 43 and the Battle of the Ruhr in Mar-Jul 43 was directed at German industry, a large part of which was supplying UBoat production. This battle alone took up 5% of Bomber Commands total sorties for WW2. Along with other raids that were specifically on yards and the devastating Operation Gomorrah in July 43, I would argue that in Bomber Commands early war, a substantial part of it was targeted at UBoat production. - Rolling20

The turning point in the Battle of the Atlantic is generally regarded as being 23 May 1943, the date on which Admiral Dönitz is believed to have realised that he was obliged to alter his U-boat strategy, coinciding as it did with the arrival in the Mersey of Convoy HX238 from New York and Halifax NS the same week, having incurred fewer losses than almost any other in the previous year.

The anniversary is celebrated in great style in Liverpool every year - as I know to my cost!

Jack

[Danny42C]

Jack,

Although we won the Battles of the Atlantic in both WWI and WWII, it still true that a submarine blockade is the means by which this country can be brought to its knees in a future war.

It was our good fortune that both the Kaiser and Hitler were land animals, neither appreciated that, if they had only put sufficient resources into their U-boat campaigns, they would have had a good chance of cutting the lifeline which supplied us with food, raw materials and war supplies. As we cannot ourselves produce the food the country needs, all an enemy needs to do then is to wait until we are starved into submission.

Even as it was, Dönitz wasn't doing too badly. Churchill said that this was always his worst worry of the war. Admittedly "Ultra" information was delayed by the time needed by the cryptographers and translators of Bletchley Park, but there were times when Churchill had on his desk a transcript of Hitler's orders to some General in the field before the recipient himself had seen them.

This was particularly useful in the U-boat war: it enabled the Admiralty to re-route convoys away from the "Wolf Packs"; and on occasion, when a U-boat "mother ship" had been located, it was arranged for a recce Catalina to "spot" it (purely by "chance", of course) so that the subsequent fatal attack would be obviously the result of the "sighting". The "chicks", deprived of fuel, stores and torpedo replacements, had no choice but to cut their sorties short and return to port.

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

Anyway, other than the Spit and Mossie, what other aircraft were essential?

We have mentioned the Lanc and Sunderland, was the Halifax essential or should more Lancs have been built?

What of the Wellington? It lasted the war and beyond.

Hurricane and Beaufighter, should we have discarded these as tank busters? And Typoon and Tempest?

[Hempy]

The BoB would never have been won without the Hurricane. As for the war in general? From a UK perspective, the Lancaster.

my 2 bobs worth anyway.

[typerated]

The Hurricane design was flawed with thick wings - Farnborough gave Sydney Camm incorrect data.
I believe the Miles aircraft -which was cheaper and quicker to build outperformed the Hurricane.

[Pontius Navigator]

Apart from getting more kills than the Spitfire, what were the two force numbers kills per aircraft?

The aircraft had a better track width than the Spit. 2x40 mm cannon was something else.

[Danny42C]

The Aircraft that Never Was.

typerated,

Your #70 made me gasp:

"I believe the Miles aircraft - which was cheaper and quicker to build outperformed the Hurricane"

(You can't mean the poor old Master, which was a nice, comfortable ride, and that was about all ???). Never heard of anything else at the time ('42), but Wiki was ready with the answer:

Miles M-20 ! (Eh?),

"......aerodynamically advanced for their time; the M.20 emergency production fighter prototype outperformed contemporary Hawker Hurricanes, despite having fixed landing gear......"

".....In the event, due to dispersal of manufacturing, the Luftwaffe's bombing of the Spitfire and Hurricane factories did not seriously affect production, and so the M.20 proved unneessary and was cancelled".

Ounce of demonsration, etc


M-20


Second prototype Miles M.27 Master III (W8667)

Hurricane Mk I (R4118), which fought in the Battle of Britain

PERFORMANCE COMPARISONS

MILES M-20

Maximum speed: 333 mph (290 knots, 536 km/h)
Range: 920 mi (800 nmi, 1,481 km)
Service ceiling: 32,800 ft (10,000 m)
Climb to 20,000 ft (6,100 m): 9 min 36 s
(2221 ft/min)

Armament

Guns: 8 × .303 inch Browning machine guns

MILES MASTER

Maximum speed: 242 mph (389 km/h)
at 6,000 ft (1,830 m)
Range: 393 mi (342 nmi, 632 km)
Service ceiling: 25,100 ft (7,650 m)
Armament

Guns: 1 × .303 in Vickers K machine gun

HURRICANE I


Max Speed: 328 mph (529km/h)
at 20,000 ft (6,095m)
Armament: Eight .303 in Browning
machine guns mounted in wings


HURRICANE IIC

Maximum speed: 340 mph (547 km/h)
at 21,000 ft (6,400 m) [N 12]
Range: 600 mi (965 km)
Service ceiling: 36,000 ft (10,970 m)
Rate of climb: 2,780 ft/min (14.1 m/s
Wing loading: 29.8 lb/ft² (121.9 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.15 hp/lb (0.25 kW/kg)

Armament

Guns: 4 × 20 mm (.79 in)
Hispano Mk II cannon
Bombs: 2 × 250 or 500 lb (
110 or 230 kg) bombs

Note: The Master is shown with the instructor's section of the "glasshouse" swung forward, and his seat raised, to see over his pupil's head.


Danny42C.

[typerated]

Yes that's the one Danny!

[megan]

The Hurricane design was flawed with thick wings - Farnborough gave Sydney Camm incorrect data

typerated, can you elaborate or point to a source? Interested because have not seen the inference prior. Always something interesting to be found.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

what other aircraft were essential?

We have mentioned the Lanc and Sunderland, was the Halifax essential or should more Lancs have been built?

Liberator/Catalina (Sunderland alone unable to counter U-boats in mid-Atlantic).

[Pontius Navigator]

TotD, I excepted these as, like the Kittihawk, Hudson, Mustang, Mitchell, Maraurder, B17, these were not part of British aircraft production.

Of course there was also the Merlin engine, Beaufighter and Mosquito that went the other way.

[Danny42C]

Ain't hindsight a wonderful thing !

D.

[megan]

what other aircraft were essential?

How about that other British inspired aircraft, the P-51. Albeit, built in the US, it was designed at the behest of the British, and they paid with hard coin for its development and production, until lend lease cut in. It was because of Rolls Royce test pilot, Ronnie Harker, that the Merlin was introduced, and the Merlin version was seen as a counter to the FW 190. Consideration was even given to setting up a production line in Britain. And it was the sole aircraft to perform the long range escort, both in Europe and the B-29 raids on Japan. An essential aircraft? In my books, the best, and all thanks to the British. Without them the aircraft would not have existed, and I wonder what course the war may have taken without it.

[Danny42C]

megan,

And we chanted:

"And now that we're at it, let us never forget
That Radar was British, and so was the Jet!"

(not entirely true, but near enough).

D.

[wonderboysteve]

Megan

I believe there is a reference to the Hurricane's overly thick wing design in:

The United Kingdom's contributions to the development of aeronautics Part 3.The development of the streamlined monoplane (the 1920s-1940s)

Ackroyd, J. A. D. in AERONAUTICAL JOURNAL; 106; 217-268, AERONAUTICAL JOURNAL by ROYAL AERONAUTICAL SOCIETY; 2002

Although I don't have a working link......