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88mm Flak Gun and Panther Tank found in villa.

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88mm Flak Gun and Panther Tank found in villa.

Old 4th Jul 2015, 08:31
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Can anyone explain the device at the end of the gun barrel on the Panther ? I've seen this on several tanks and have always been puzzled as to it's function and purpose ?
Muzzle Brake
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 08:33
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Its a Muzzle Brake.....the gases from the shot pass sideways through the device and help to stop some of the recoil although the side blast that this device produced could give away the gun's position. Therefore, some mobile anti-tank guns dispensed with it.
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 09:20
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especially when used with APDS ammunition
He did the test firings for Sabot in Dorset. Unfortunately the planners placed the infantry ahead of the tank and wondered why they fell down when a sabot shell was fired.

Also a Firefly could could not fire on the move. It would strip the gearbox.

Last edited by Navaleye; 4th Jul 2015 at 09:57.
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 10:00
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Does that reduce by much the exit velocity of the round?
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 11:55
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When they took the goveners off for the Hamburg tank race they got to over 30mph. I not sure that would make a huge difference
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 11:59
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When they took the goveners off for the Hamburg tank race they got to over 30mph. I'm not sure that would make a huge difference
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 12:13
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Also a Firefly could could not fire on the move. It would strip the gearbox.
Hardly any tanks of that era fired on the move. They would miss!
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 12:14
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@ Stilton. That device is a muzzle brake, the purpose is to divert some of the enengy from firing the projectile to reducing the recoil (I think). Happy to be corrected.

Question. When all closed up in a tank, how does the gunner get to aim the gun? How does he do his sighting?
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 12:16
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The only reason they won was that the German industry got crippled and the German production lines just couldn't produce enough tanks.
Thanks to the Lancaster's and B17's, flown by courageous men, perhaps!
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 12:56
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Question. When all closed up in a tank, how does the gunner get to aim the gun? How does he do his sighting?
They have an optical sight alongside the gun, they also have periscopes on the roof.

This is the machine gunners periscope, as you see it can rotate

http://s427.photobucket.com/user/Gar...ml?sort=3&o=19

Internal view

http://s427.photobucket.com/user/Gar...ml?sort=3&o=41
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 13:07
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Thanks muchly :thumbsup:
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 13:09
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The failure of the Panther was mainly due to a very overstressed final drive (post WW2, the French operated the Panther and found it needed a final drive major overhaul after every 150km of use). This in turn was caused by industrial shortages forcing it to be built with lower strength steel in a less effective design. The two major problems were lack of high strength steel and lack of machine tools (the weak final drive had straight-cut gears as there was insufficient tooling to make the preferred helically-cut gears). The lack of machine tools was down to area bombing, which deliberately targeted this capacity. They didn't try to hit the machines, the idea was simply to blow the roofs off and let the weather do the work.

Coupled with this was the German policy of maximising output at the expense of spares. So the Panther would arrive at the front by rail, advance 100 km and break down. With no spares, the technicians would have to rob the spares off another u/s Panther. Except, of course, this was probably u/s because of a broken final drive also.
43% of Panthers at the battle of Kursk went u/s through mechanical failure.

So, arguably the Germans did produce enough tanks, but it was meeting this target at the expense of serviceability and spares which did them in.
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 15:29
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Something always sinister about our germainian friends and their basements !

Re muzzle break it can serve three purposes

As already stated it reduces recoil by dirverting gas rearward and as it obeys newton's laws offsets the recoil by applying a forward pressure

Secondarily if diverted appropriatley it reduces elevation due to recoil and puts the gun back on original target ( or more closer) for a second shot if needed

I also understand ( although memory fades )!it can also give be used to reduce losses due to the resistance of air ahead of the round but obviously cannot increase pressure to increase range.. Something to with aperture size and location ( front whole is limiting and side vents have a bigger effect in releasing the pressure ahead of the shell and as they do for energising gases from the charge).. I am sure some one here can elaborated... It's all very complicated and nurse called nap time halfway through the explanation
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 15:33
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The early Panthers also suffered from an overheating exhaust which often led to the tank catching fire. Many of the Kursk losses were from this source.
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 15:35
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Originally Posted by Wensleydale
The early Panthers also suffered from an overheating exhaust which often led to the tank catching fire. Many of the Kursk losses were from this source.
I am sure they would say that or was it effective air to ground and the il2 doing it's job... I guess the others would say that too!
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 15:45
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Maintenance wasn't their strong point. The lost dozens outside Stalingrad during Operation Uranus when it was discovered that mice had decided that a hull was a nice place to keep warm while they ate the insulation off the electrical wiring. Nom nom nom!
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 16:18
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Orac - since you had not specified which end of the gun, I nearly replied "a tank"...............


now I look at it, not that funny either, but it is a very hot afternoon, and I have just been to have a replacement exhaust delivered from UK fitted, and guess what, they sent Ford Focus gaskets.........for a Nissan X-Trail. So I am grumpy anyway!
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 16:45
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My vote goes to the 17pdr. My father was a radio operator/gunner in a Sherman Firefly and he killed 2 Panthers and Tiger plus Mk3 and Mk4. The boxheads were good but they were scared of the 17pdr. I believe one got Wittman.
My late grandfather was an instructor in the army during WWII and got chance to fire a 17pdr. He rated it as the most amazing weapon he every got to play with. The other plus point for the gun was it was air transportable in a Hamilcar, thus 6th Airborne had a few on the ground on D-day along with their prime movers. I do recall seeing somewhere that the Firefly crew got into a habit of trying to camouflage the front end of the gun to make it look like a standard 76mm gun, as the boxheads were scared of the Firefly and they would be the first tank to be engaged by the Germans if they spotted one. There is some debate about what got Wittman. Most of his troop on the day he was killed were taken out by Firefly's on his right flank. However on his left flank were a troop of Canadian standard Shermans hidden behind a large wall and one of them got a close range shot in the aft quarter of Withman's Tiger with a 76mm which was the shot that killed him.
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 17:02
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You should try the free game War-Thunder online, trust me the Russians that developed it, seem to have thrown the book out as to what tanks are better than others, heck they even have T54's fighting Panthers.
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Old 4th Jul 2015, 19:10
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The 17 pr and the 88mm were excellent tank guns but the Soviet JS with its 122mm gun firing a solid full bore shot would reduce any armoured vehicle to scrap metal. It was further developed after the war resulting in the T-10 which forced the western powers to scramble to find the equivalent. Neither the optimistically named Conqueror or the M-107 even came close.
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