APO - what is the substantive rank?
TTN
In the transport world, 'Green Shield' referred to young chaps with university degrees who after South Cerney/Church Fenton spent 6 months as Plt Off, 9 months as Fg Off and then became Flt Lts without having to take the B exam' - the latter promotion coming while they were still in the training machine.
A source of great contention and irritation to those of us, particularly Fg Off captains, who although second tour were junior to brand new first tourers. Why the RAF gave seniority to someone who had never worked before joining and perhaps had a degree in 'underwater basket weaving' or some other useless subject, was a mystery to many of us.
Re VC10 commands the phrase used by us was, 'Are you a real Sqn Ldr or a VC10 captain?'.
A source of great contention and irritation to those of us, particularly Fg Off captains, who although second tour were junior to brand new first tourers. Why the RAF gave seniority to someone who had never worked before joining and perhaps had a degree in 'underwater basket weaving' or some other useless subject, was a mystery to many of us.
Re VC10 commands the phrase used by us was, 'Are you a real Sqn Ldr or a VC10 captain?'.
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 3rd Jul 2015 at 15:53. Reason: incorrect months
A story was told in the mid 70's of a chap walking into Gieves, putting a Sqn.Ldr's jacket on the counter and saying " I want that re-braided"
Uriah Heep type behind counter says "May I be the first to congratulate you, sir."
"F*** O** - they've just posted me off VC10s"
Went down well with Captains of non-VC10 four jets.
Uriah Heep type behind counter says "May I be the first to congratulate you, sir."
"F*** O** - they've just posted me off VC10s"
Went down well with Captains of non-VC10 four jets.
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some of the most amazing rags-to-riches-to rags occurred in the US Civil War and its aftermath
George Custer went to Major General in the War and back to Captain afterwards......
George Custer went to Major General in the War and back to Captain afterwards......
Brian - yes I remember the term well. We had one on our nav course who was a chopped pilot and had already reached the dizzy rank of flight lieutenant. 2ANS insisted that student navs called all staff "sir", and so we had the crazy situation of this guy calling our maths instructor, a flying officer Education Officer "sir" - much to his amusement. At least this guy had a maths degree, which was a bit more relevant to the job than underwater basket weaving. Mind you he still got miffed when I regularly beat him in our frequent mental arithmetic tests. As he never failed to remind me arithmetic isn't maths, but I thought that was just sour grapes!
Brian - yes I remember the term well. We had one on our nav course, who was a chopped pilot and had already reached the dizzy rank of flight lieutenant. 2ANS insisted that student navs called all staff "sir", and so we had the crazy situation of this guy calling our maths instructor, a flying officer education officer "sir" - much to his amusement. At least this guy had a maths degree, which was a bit more relevant to the job than underwater basket weaving. Mind you he still got miffed when I regularly beat him in our frequent mental arithmetic tests. As he never failed to remind me arithmetic isn't maths, but I thought that was just sour grapes!
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Oxenos, of course the other sign was the wide spacing between the two rings.
Brian, I believe the Army had the equivalent of green shield. The story went something like this:
Newly posted officer, straight from Sandhurst, arriving at his regiment.
CO in loud voice "You there", or words to that effect, "what's that on your shoulder?"
NPO looks at shoulder expecting to see bird poo but only sees 3 shiney pips, " my rank, Sir."
"Get them off, you're a subaltern until I tell you otherwise."
True or not, probably a sensible thing
A chief would help a fg off JENGO but expect a flt lt to know his stuff.
Brian, I believe the Army had the equivalent of green shield. The story went something like this:
Newly posted officer, straight from Sandhurst, arriving at his regiment.
CO in loud voice "You there", or words to that effect, "what's that on your shoulder?"
NPO looks at shoulder expecting to see bird poo but only sees 3 shiney pips, " my rank, Sir."
"Get them off, you're a subaltern until I tell you otherwise."
True or not, probably a sensible thing
A chief would help a fg off JENGO but expect a flt lt to know his stuff.
Re Green Shield Flt Lts, in the early '70s, University Entrants to RAFC received an increment if they'd achieved a First. But had to do 6 months as Plt Off before the promotion kicked in. As there were 4 entries per year, this meant that some arrived on the last entry of the years to start IOT as Flt Lts without having done previous time pre-university as Flt Cdts.
One chap on 17 GE actually outranked his ex-supplementary list blanket-stacker flight commander, who was only an acting Flt Lt..... Fortunately they both saw the funny side of such a system.
Another, with increments for having been an ex-App and having also been a Flt Cdt, never served any time as a Fg Off - due to the 6 month thing, he went straight from Plt Off to Flt Lt.....
One chap on 17 GE actually outranked his ex-supplementary list blanket-stacker flight commander, who was only an acting Flt Lt..... Fortunately they both saw the funny side of such a system.
Another, with increments for having been an ex-App and having also been a Flt Cdt, never served any time as a Fg Off - due to the 6 month thing, he went straight from Plt Off to Flt Lt.....
The army certainly had similar anomalies in the Great War.
Robert Graves was embarrassed and amused by his elevation.
As a Special Reserve officer of the RWF he was promoted on the regimental SR list. There was a lot of dying going on.
By the time he reached the Front he was a captain, very young, with zero experience, now serving alongside subalterns holding temporary war-time commissions with months of trench exposure.
The compounding anomaly was that regulars of any rank were senior to those of the SR of the same rank, who were in turn senior to TF. This was later addressed.
Robert Graves was embarrassed and amused by his elevation.
As a Special Reserve officer of the RWF he was promoted on the regimental SR list. There was a lot of dying going on.
By the time he reached the Front he was a captain, very young, with zero experience, now serving alongside subalterns holding temporary war-time commissions with months of trench exposure.
The compounding anomaly was that regulars of any rank were senior to those of the SR of the same rank, who were in turn senior to TF. This was later addressed.
My first posting after Flying Training was to Benson on the Argosy in 1962.
There was a Corporal in the General Office who sported wings and a DFC etc. He had been field-promoted during WW II to Wg Cdr in charge of a Mustang Wing and he left in 1946 in his substantive rank of Sgt Pilot.
He hated civvie street so much that he re-joined as an airman.
There was a Corporal in the General Office who sported wings and a DFC etc. He had been field-promoted during WW II to Wg Cdr in charge of a Mustang Wing and he left in 1946 in his substantive rank of Sgt Pilot.
He hated civvie street so much that he re-joined as an airman.
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F*** O** - they've just posted me off VC10s"
Went down well with Captains of non-VC10 four jets.
Went down well with Captains of non-VC10 four jets.
the new Station Commander, Air Cdre C D North-Lewis. The story went round among the aircrew on my Sqdn
that, after welcoming the Sqn/Ldr captain he ordered him to report to the Station barbers, before entering the OM!
goudie
IIRC the story about a VC10 captain being taken to the barber's shop by Akrotiri staish was about 1971 - lots of us in the transport fleet were being invited to have our sideburns and droopy moustaches trimmed by our respective OC stations then!
The first RAF VC10 flew late '65 and the squadron didn't form until well into '66.
The first RAF VC10 flew late '65 and the squadron didn't form until well into '66.
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Brian, that stains would have been Air Cdre Stacey, a larger than life character one of whose claims to fame was reserving the Ladies Room for a personal function suite and mess guests for the bar. He had another suite down at movements again with a mess guests tab.
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Late on parade ... sorry, been on holiday. 
1. The 2 "Letters from Betty" on the wall behind me have "Acting Pilot Officer" as our commissioned rank. Having been involved in later years with re-selecting APOs who did not make the grade in professional training, the first consideration was that they had already been commissioned .. and thus had to be found a suitable place for their 'officer-ness' in a different Branch. Eviction was a last resort.
2. During our stormy trip on the good ship SS Uganda to FI, one of the pax was the RN lt who was going to be "OC Troops" on the SS Rangatira, moored for accommodation purposes in the Inner Harbour at Port Stanley. He was christened 'Senior Naval Officer, The Rangatira", or SNOTRAG. He was not very amused.
1. The 2 "Letters from Betty" on the wall behind me have "Acting Pilot Officer" as our commissioned rank. Having been involved in later years with re-selecting APOs who did not make the grade in professional training, the first consideration was that they had already been commissioned .. and thus had to be found a suitable place for their 'officer-ness' in a different Branch. Eviction was a last resort.
2. During our stormy trip on the good ship SS Uganda to FI, one of the pax was the RN lt who was going to be "OC Troops" on the SS Rangatira, moored for accommodation purposes in the Inner Harbour at Port Stanley. He was christened 'Senior Naval Officer, The Rangatira", or SNOTRAG. He was not very amused.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
'underwater basket weaving'
'Are you a real Sqn Ldr or a VC10 captain?'
I've told this one before, about the unwise VC10 LM who called out "there go the tankertrash" from the door of his air conditioned room at Akrotiri as a hot and sweaty Victor crew plodded to their (non air conditioned) rooms. Unfortunately for him the crew contained a very fiery sqn Ldr nav who promptly had said SNCO evicted and a couple of the guys on his crew moved in. The VC10's tame squadron leader took umbrage and complained to the Station Commander, who to his eternal credit backed the tanker nav to the hilt.
South Cerney grads who remember a very bristly red headed nav on the DS will know who I am talking about. You could have done with him on Hercs, Herod!
South Cerney grads who remember a very bristly red headed nav on the DS will know who I am talking about. You could have done with him on Hercs, Herod!
Herod/TTN
I think I've told this one before too - I was a member of a Herc' crew night-stopping Gan. In the afternoon we were having a few bevvies in the Blue Lagoon, dressed in shorts, short-sleeved shirts and flip flops etc. About 6.30 in walks a VC10 captain in slacks, long sleeved shirt and tie ( why we were expected to dress like that in the tropics G*d knows! ) etc and stands at the bar nursing his beer.
As 7pm approached he kept looking at us and pointing at his watch - we indicated that we were just finishing our beers and then would head off to change. Finally at 7pm he came across and said ' Right you lot, you are improperly dressed, go and get changed now!'
Just as we got up the swing doors opened and in walked a Victor tanker crew, dressed in sweaty flying suits with dangly bits of tubing hanging from them, at their head was a Wg Cdr pilot who rubbed his hands together and shouted,'My round lads what you'll be having?'. At this point VC10 captain sloped off to the dining room and we of course got another round in!
As 7pm approached he kept looking at us and pointing at his watch - we indicated that we were just finishing our beers and then would head off to change. Finally at 7pm he came across and said ' Right you lot, you are improperly dressed, go and get changed now!'
Just as we got up the swing doors opened and in walked a Victor tanker crew, dressed in sweaty flying suits with dangly bits of tubing hanging from them, at their head was a Wg Cdr pilot who rubbed his hands together and shouted,'My round lads what you'll be having?'. At this point VC10 captain sloped off to the dining room and we of course got another round in!
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 4th Jul 2015 at 13:54. Reason: grammar
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Who came up with the idea of making 10 Sqn Capts acting Sqn Ldr? A 10 Sqn Capt? Such an odd idea. Four gold bars 
but 2 and a half blue ones 
but 2 and a half blue ones