Possible new humanitarian/rescue operation coming up.
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More good graphic pictures here of the days events.
Royal Navy rescues migrants from Mediterranean death boats off the shore of Libya | Daily Mail Online
This was just one days worth of people. Amazing quantities of people are now stacked up in Libya and seem to be being fed onwards like a conveyor.
Royal Marines faces tell a story in themselves, its not as if its a glamorous task that anyone wants.
Only one of these ships now available, thanks to the defence cuts and budget squeezes, so this ships company have a long old summer ahead doing this, and they just know it.
One of the refugees looks like he has a dental brace on. Most are fairly young and looking to do this out of financial gain, I'm guessing that. Some have taken their wives along, and they look iller and more stressed.
The west has walked right into this one. The warlords of Libya consistently outmanoeuvre HMG.
This was just one days worth of people. Amazing quantities of people are now stacked up in Libya and seem to be being fed onwards like a conveyor.
Royal Marines faces tell a story in themselves, its not as if its a glamorous task that anyone wants.
Only one of these ships now available, thanks to the defence cuts and budget squeezes, so this ships company have a long old summer ahead doing this, and they just know it.
One of the refugees looks like he has a dental brace on. Most are fairly young and looking to do this out of financial gain, I'm guessing that. Some have taken their wives along, and they look iller and more stressed.
The west has walked right into this one. The warlords of Libya consistently outmanoeuvre HMG.
The way it's going we might as well take out the middle man and pick them up straight off the beach! Tactics at the moment are hardly going to dissuade anyone from coming over, a way has to be found to return them to the African coastline.
I'm waiting to hear of the first inflatable to come over from France and beach at Clapton.......
I'm waiting to hear of the first inflatable to come over from France and beach at Clapton.......
Originally Posted by dctyke
The way it's going we might as well take out the middle man and pick them up straight off the beach! Tactics at the moment are hardly going to dissuade anyone from coming over, a way has to be found to return them to the African coastline.
CM:-
Then home for tea and medals? I'll leave it to others better qualified than I to tell us what would be needed before HM warships could enter Libyan territorial waters, let alone enter its ports and hand over its 'passengers'.. to who exactly?
The country is in chaos and we all know why. The solution to that chaos and similar chaos in much of the rest of the African continent is, I would suggest, rather beyond the capabilities of HMS B or indeed the UK. Isn't there an international organisation charged with bringing peace to such war ridden areas? United what? Oh, it isn't? Oh well.
Patrol close enough to the countries the refugees come from and all HMS B needs to do is drop them back at home. When enough people pay $1000 dollars and then appear back on the dock looking jolly miffed, the rest will start to have second thoughts before buying their ticket.
The country is in chaos and we all know why. The solution to that chaos and similar chaos in much of the rest of the African continent is, I would suggest, rather beyond the capabilities of HMS B or indeed the UK. Isn't there an international organisation charged with bringing peace to such war ridden areas? United what? Oh, it isn't? Oh well.
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Millions of dollars worth of petrochemical technology are currently all over Libya, being well guarded (for a fee) by the local warlords. Multinational Oil and Gas groups are using middle-men to contact these people to ensure their kit is looked after until a time mutually convenient to all to kick start production and extraction again. I heard this from a friend. However the Libyan state owned stuff was blown to atoms, so they could be waiting a while yet.
For the warlords the export of people is another very lucrative side-line, which they wont want closing down just yet.
The Royal Navy are now a very effective final delivery service of their plan as it were (bit like a British postman, simply sorts and post's the package through the door onto Europes mat, as it were-the money side of things (the cost of the stamp) being taken within the unseen houses of Libya. Its a nice little hustle at the moment with the emphasis firmly on the Europeans to sort out.
On Sky News last night the RN in a Merlin helicoptered one pregnant lady whose waters had broken to..Malta? The ship was last reported heading for Sicily with about 1500 refugees/travellers/fee payers onboard for process. They had undoubtedly saved their lives as the boat they were in could have capsized at any moment.
Sadly this event hasn't seemed to have been reflected in the radio news today, all about G7 and Europe.
The Bulwark had 1500 people and 12 chemical toilets for the lot, what's that about 125 per toilet. Real nasty sort of set up and a real risk of disease there in the Summer heat and dank air of that vessel.
Turnaround for the Bulwark could be what? 48 hours? Bet the lads are praying for an engine failure, or similar "accident" to prevent a return trip. Its all been done before.
For the warlords the export of people is another very lucrative side-line, which they wont want closing down just yet.
The Royal Navy are now a very effective final delivery service of their plan as it were (bit like a British postman, simply sorts and post's the package through the door onto Europes mat, as it were-the money side of things (the cost of the stamp) being taken within the unseen houses of Libya. Its a nice little hustle at the moment with the emphasis firmly on the Europeans to sort out.
On Sky News last night the RN in a Merlin helicoptered one pregnant lady whose waters had broken to..Malta? The ship was last reported heading for Sicily with about 1500 refugees/travellers/fee payers onboard for process. They had undoubtedly saved their lives as the boat they were in could have capsized at any moment.
Sadly this event hasn't seemed to have been reflected in the radio news today, all about G7 and Europe.
The Bulwark had 1500 people and 12 chemical toilets for the lot, what's that about 125 per toilet. Real nasty sort of set up and a real risk of disease there in the Summer heat and dank air of that vessel.
Turnaround for the Bulwark could be what? 48 hours? Bet the lads are praying for an engine failure, or similar "accident" to prevent a return trip. Its all been done before.
Originally Posted by Chug
Then home for tea and medals? I'll leave it to others better qualified than I to tell us what would be needed before HM warships could enter Libyan territorial waters, let alone enter its ports and hand over its 'passengers'.. to who exactly?
A simple request to land people rescued at sea should suffice. Worth a try. If denied then the law would accept an alternative port. Of course, the ship doesn't operate in isolation; they do have comms all the way back to the UK who could (if the will exists) arrange passage. If they could arrange passage for me in a 'warplane' at very short notice, I'm sure this could be tried. As the survivors are nationals of the country to which they are being returned, they probably don't need to be handed over to anyone, just the taxi driver for the ride home. Simplistic? Yes. But the alternative is to keep on rescuing these (yes, very infortunate) people. Once Europe has absorbed the entire population of troubled Africa, we may wish we'd handled it differently.
Isn't there an international organisation charged with bringing peace to such war ridden areas? United what? Oh, it isn't? Oh well.
I'm not suggesting this is going to be easy, but someone will need to make a stand sometime soon.
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I still worry about the lads morale and welfare.
I mean the Captain and his officers on TV look exactly the right stuff. You need people like them and they are the utter salt of the earth.
But I've been on these horrible open ended deployment things myself. It draws down on you in the end, always. I worry about the lads who get the dirty end of the jobs down at the bottom end of the rung. I hope someone reading this who has some sort of input, can arrange the following;
(a) Seriously consider going to rotate the ships company of Bulwark through a cycle. Is topmast still in force and going? I would put them on a maximum 42 day cycle each. The Navy and the RM's ASRM can handle that. I mean it. Get the lads in and out over the 42 days. We have a spare capacity of people and the capability in airhead and money.
Reason-health/safety/efficiency/morale. This will be a long, long term goer of an operation. It is unrealistic to keep the same tiny percentage of lads in the Navy at the **** end of a long stick for a very long time.
(b) Get the Albion manned and out again, and start up the planning now as a replacement for the Bulwark. (This gives people hope for eventual relief for a ship on deployment-very important to the mindset of a twenty year old kid..)
(c) Get a plan going, a realistic one, for Libya. Have the Oil and Gas Multinationals involved, get them all together on an island, in London wherever but get a deal quickly on and get the whole country moving again. Money talks louder than prayers to Arabs and Africans and they need to get it going.
Otherwise its heading for an even bigger disaster than it already is.
But I've been on these horrible open ended deployment things myself. It draws down on you in the end, always. I worry about the lads who get the dirty end of the jobs down at the bottom end of the rung. I hope someone reading this who has some sort of input, can arrange the following;
(a) Seriously consider going to rotate the ships company of Bulwark through a cycle. Is topmast still in force and going? I would put them on a maximum 42 day cycle each. The Navy and the RM's ASRM can handle that. I mean it. Get the lads in and out over the 42 days. We have a spare capacity of people and the capability in airhead and money.
Reason-health/safety/efficiency/morale. This will be a long, long term goer of an operation. It is unrealistic to keep the same tiny percentage of lads in the Navy at the **** end of a long stick for a very long time.
(b) Get the Albion manned and out again, and start up the planning now as a replacement for the Bulwark. (This gives people hope for eventual relief for a ship on deployment-very important to the mindset of a twenty year old kid..)
(c) Get a plan going, a realistic one, for Libya. Have the Oil and Gas Multinationals involved, get them all together on an island, in London wherever but get a deal quickly on and get the whole country moving again. Money talks louder than prayers to Arabs and Africans and they need to get it going.
Otherwise its heading for an even bigger disaster than it already is.
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Short of a stabilisation action across the whole of Africa, it seems to me that the only options left are the unsustainable one of the EU taking on the perpetual influx of migrants or, in my mind the only real option, creating an Israel type settlement somewhere in the region.
Maybe NE Libya (2 borders facing water/ 1 facing egypt) would be a logical choice. I don't think I need to explain the obvious benefits of having a relatively trustworthy standing military force in Egypt in the picture to the people on this forum, on this particular topic.
Another interesting thought is the possibility of Greece taking centre stage on this. Though I'm not sure on the specifics of Greek islands, perhaps there is scope to develop these into a permanent home for these displaced families. Islands would be a dream to police compared to anywhere on the continent. Conceivably, these islands could be donated by the Greek government, who are already looking to sell them off, in return for concession on their debt. The islands are more than likely to be worth more than they are currently sold for.
The main priority and key to solving this crisis, I'm sure you'll agree, is to help the displaced to help themselves; 'Give a man a fish' and all that... Hopefully by giving them somewhere they can call their own we can stem the rush to the UK, and the EU in general. Maybe we can even cut the supply of fighters to the warring factions.
I think the real irony is that this type of rehoming would be much cheaper in the long run than anything we will actually try, and that it will be much easier than simply changing our benefit law to make our intake more sustainable in the long run.
Maybe NE Libya (2 borders facing water/ 1 facing egypt) would be a logical choice. I don't think I need to explain the obvious benefits of having a relatively trustworthy standing military force in Egypt in the picture to the people on this forum, on this particular topic.
Another interesting thought is the possibility of Greece taking centre stage on this. Though I'm not sure on the specifics of Greek islands, perhaps there is scope to develop these into a permanent home for these displaced families. Islands would be a dream to police compared to anywhere on the continent. Conceivably, these islands could be donated by the Greek government, who are already looking to sell them off, in return for concession on their debt. The islands are more than likely to be worth more than they are currently sold for.
The main priority and key to solving this crisis, I'm sure you'll agree, is to help the displaced to help themselves; 'Give a man a fish' and all that... Hopefully by giving them somewhere they can call their own we can stem the rush to the UK, and the EU in general. Maybe we can even cut the supply of fighters to the warring factions.
I think the real irony is that this type of rehoming would be much cheaper in the long run than anything we will actually try, and that it will be much easier than simply changing our benefit law to make our intake more sustainable in the long run.
Hangarshuffle, (post 48)
Are you suggesting the guys and gals on HMSB are not up to this, or up for this? This is the Navy. Long cruises are part of their lives, humanitarian assistance is their pride and joy, doing tough stuff is a part of their heritage.
Or are you now going to tell me that all that stuff wasn't true? I'd rather believe the mental model of the Navy that serving members have placed in my head over the decades.
Are you suggesting the guys and gals on HMSB are not up to this, or up for this? This is the Navy. Long cruises are part of their lives, humanitarian assistance is their pride and joy, doing tough stuff is a part of their heritage.
Or are you now going to tell me that all that stuff wasn't true? I'd rather believe the mental model of the Navy that serving members have placed in my head over the decades.
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I once wondered why Russia and China had not vetoed the US/NATO UN Security Council Resolutions for the Iraq and Libya interventions but it has become increasingly clear.
'They that sow the wind ....' and all that.
'They that sow the wind ....' and all that.
CM:-
The "survivors" have already been fleeced of everything that they possess by inhabitants of the country to which you propose they be returned. For most the only things that they have left are their very lives. If they cannot be realised in fiscal form in the form of ransom then those 'assets' may well be written down to zero in the perfunctory manner prevalent there.
No, they are by no means all Libyan nationals, as you well know. I find your facile contribution to this enormous challenge grating, but then of course grammatical comment trumps that in your book.
As the survivors are nationals of the country to which they are being returned, they probably don't need to be handed over to anyone, just the taxi driver for the ride home.
No, they are by no means all Libyan nationals, as you well know. I find your facile contribution to this enormous challenge grating, but then of course grammatical comment trumps that in your book.
To whom. Sorry, that just grates.
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Courtney
I still think the lads are up to it, but I still think things would work a lot better for all if the Navy now adopted more intelligent use of its diminishing people.
In the offshore OG world as you know UK rules limit the amount of time you can spend on a rig (think its 3 weeks or 21 days in the UK shelf, STBC). Go further away and many or most multinationals put limits on, things like 60 or 90 days maximum deployed working hard on a 12 hour cycle.
Think the Navy should adopt this rule, especially here.
This looks a very hard slog for the ratings onboard. Its now approaching high Summer, we all know what that's like in the North Africa region. Risk of disease is very evident. I would wager emotional fatigue will be a factor.
What will really sap at people is the knowledge that they are a 1 trick pony. There is no relief ship for Bulwark, she is all the nation now has.
I listened at length to the lads who returned from HMS Ocean after the Libyan attacks. They were there offshore for months because they also had no replacement. They and the ship were in literal bits at the end of that particular long futile slog.
Its just no way to run things in the modern era. We have airheads, cheap rentable airliners and literally thousands of ratings onshore who could be trained and rotated through if required. (There is little else on operationally as important as this little hot coal at the moment).
Civilians do this within the Oil and Gas and it works a lot better, their retention of people is higher. Most importantly the RN's own peoples quality of life would be far better and that's what counts.
In the offshore OG world as you know UK rules limit the amount of time you can spend on a rig (think its 3 weeks or 21 days in the UK shelf, STBC). Go further away and many or most multinationals put limits on, things like 60 or 90 days maximum deployed working hard on a 12 hour cycle.
Think the Navy should adopt this rule, especially here.
This looks a very hard slog for the ratings onboard. Its now approaching high Summer, we all know what that's like in the North Africa region. Risk of disease is very evident. I would wager emotional fatigue will be a factor.
What will really sap at people is the knowledge that they are a 1 trick pony. There is no relief ship for Bulwark, she is all the nation now has.
I listened at length to the lads who returned from HMS Ocean after the Libyan attacks. They were there offshore for months because they also had no replacement. They and the ship were in literal bits at the end of that particular long futile slog.
Its just no way to run things in the modern era. We have airheads, cheap rentable airliners and literally thousands of ratings onshore who could be trained and rotated through if required. (There is little else on operationally as important as this little hot coal at the moment).
Civilians do this within the Oil and Gas and it works a lot better, their retention of people is higher. Most importantly the RN's own peoples quality of life would be far better and that's what counts.
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Max Hasty has been reading our posts.
'Reducing our Armed Forces to a ferry service for migrants is madness' | Daily Mail Online
Royal Navy catches suspected members of Libyan people smuggling ring | Daily Mail Online
Some more good pictures from the Daily Sail, offloading the pax, shifty looking coves lurking around. These people are going to cost us all a fortune (that's the immers, not the sailors!).
God Almighty am I glad I am no longer involved in all of this. I say a prayer every day I wake up I am no longer a member of the RN, and am now a free slave.
Royal Navy catches suspected members of Libyan people smuggling ring | Daily Mail Online
Some more good pictures from the Daily Sail, offloading the pax, shifty looking coves lurking around. These people are going to cost us all a fortune (that's the immers, not the sailors!).
God Almighty am I glad I am no longer involved in all of this. I say a prayer every day I wake up I am no longer a member of the RN, and am now a free slave.
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Hangarshuffle
It's difficult to know where to start.
Are you really ex RN?
Is there any part of trying to rotate a crew of a warship every 30/60/90 days that is not utterly moronic?
Do you really think that rescue ops in the med is a tricky/tiring evolution?
A warship is not a foxhole. The med is not Iraq or Afghanistan or the Falklands. I think the RM/RN will cope with the stress from under their duvets in their comfy bunks.
Don't be so wet.
It's difficult to know where to start.
Are you really ex RN?
Is there any part of trying to rotate a crew of a warship every 30/60/90 days that is not utterly moronic?
Do you really think that rescue ops in the med is a tricky/tiring evolution?
A warship is not a foxhole. The med is not Iraq or Afghanistan or the Falklands. I think the RM/RN will cope with the stress from under their duvets in their comfy bunks.
Don't be so wet.
Chug,
I do get your humanitarian concerns, but do you really think that picking them up and taking them to Europe is the answer? The more that get through, the more will come. Month after month, year after year. Can/should Europe accommodate them all? How many would that eventually be? Millions, potentially.
Treating the symptoms won't cure the disease, as you have (in a different context) stated many times here. If the poor folks trying to escape to Europe started to see their friends returned to Africa instead of sending postcards from Europe saying, "Come on over, everything is great,". Maybe they might be discouraged and start to see the traffickers as the low-life scum they are.
Maybe you don't feel the numbers will soon become overwhelming. I suspect they shall.
I do get your humanitarian concerns, but do you really think that picking them up and taking them to Europe is the answer? The more that get through, the more will come. Month after month, year after year. Can/should Europe accommodate them all? How many would that eventually be? Millions, potentially.
Treating the symptoms won't cure the disease, as you have (in a different context) stated many times here. If the poor folks trying to escape to Europe started to see their friends returned to Africa instead of sending postcards from Europe saying, "Come on over, everything is great,". Maybe they might be discouraged and start to see the traffickers as the low-life scum they are.
Maybe you don't feel the numbers will soon become overwhelming. I suspect they shall.
CM:-
and I am unanimous in that!
Seriously, I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and to complete the quote above, you have to correct the cause. In this case, given the myriad regions from which these people originate, that should read causes.
Those who come from that worst of all scenarios, a civil war, should be granted safe haven in my view, both here and in Europe. That has always been UK practice and we should not change. Those who flee persecution by corrupt regimes (of which it seems there is no end) should also be given sanctuary. Those who are economic migrants should be put into refugee camps and offered early return to their own countries ASAP.
All easy to say and damned hard to carry out I admit, but the causes have then to be addressed. The United Nations has totally failed Africa, if not the World as a whole. Somehow it must be made to work, or scrapped entirely in favour of a successor, just as its predecessor was. It would then have to sort out international money laundering, which is the engine that makes large scale fiscal corruption possible. In that regard I suggest it re spots to Switzerland, to cut out the many transatlantic flights to there which would otherwise be required.
There, I've handed myself on a plate. Enjoy!
Treating the symptoms won't cure the disease, as you have (in a different context) stated many times here.
Seriously, I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and to complete the quote above, you have to correct the cause. In this case, given the myriad regions from which these people originate, that should read causes.
Those who come from that worst of all scenarios, a civil war, should be granted safe haven in my view, both here and in Europe. That has always been UK practice and we should not change. Those who flee persecution by corrupt regimes (of which it seems there is no end) should also be given sanctuary. Those who are economic migrants should be put into refugee camps and offered early return to their own countries ASAP.
All easy to say and damned hard to carry out I admit, but the causes have then to be addressed. The United Nations has totally failed Africa, if not the World as a whole. Somehow it must be made to work, or scrapped entirely in favour of a successor, just as its predecessor was. It would then have to sort out international money laundering, which is the engine that makes large scale fiscal corruption possible. In that regard I suggest it re spots to Switzerland, to cut out the many transatlantic flights to there which would otherwise be required.
There, I've handed myself on a plate. Enjoy!
I don't think anyone could disagree with with your argument there, Chug. Africa is in crisis, some countries in particular. And those countries have millions of people that are in big trouble and that need help.
The point I've been making is slightly different in that helping thousands of people a week to get to Europe is not the answer. Why? Because more will follow, why wouldn't everyone there in distress want to follow? Certainly the ones arriving now will seek leave for their immediate families to come - so multiply the number arriving by whatever number is appropriate.
A substantial number seem to be saying that their desire is to go to the UK. And here's the rub. How many more millions can the UK support? It's simply not viable. There has to be a better and more permanent way of dealing with this and I can only see that the first steps have to be in Africa, hence my remarks about returning them there. Once there, as you rightly say, there will be a need for support. That will grow, but maybe not as quickly once this easy route into Europe is shut down.
It's not all about the UK. Sweden, Hungary and Austria appear to be popular destinations. Sweden currently has about 8 asylum applications per head of population at the moment. How long can that go on?
Countries of origin appear to be Nigeria, Somalia, Eritrea and Gambia. Not surprising, but there are millions more there to follow. And the rate of influx appears to be accelerating. If they haven't already, the numbers will quickly become unmanageable.
That's my point.
The point I've been making is slightly different in that helping thousands of people a week to get to Europe is not the answer. Why? Because more will follow, why wouldn't everyone there in distress want to follow? Certainly the ones arriving now will seek leave for their immediate families to come - so multiply the number arriving by whatever number is appropriate.
A substantial number seem to be saying that their desire is to go to the UK. And here's the rub. How many more millions can the UK support? It's simply not viable. There has to be a better and more permanent way of dealing with this and I can only see that the first steps have to be in Africa, hence my remarks about returning them there. Once there, as you rightly say, there will be a need for support. That will grow, but maybe not as quickly once this easy route into Europe is shut down.
It's not all about the UK. Sweden, Hungary and Austria appear to be popular destinations. Sweden currently has about 8 asylum applications per head of population at the moment. How long can that go on?
Countries of origin appear to be Nigeria, Somalia, Eritrea and Gambia. Not surprising, but there are millions more there to follow. And the rate of influx appears to be accelerating. If they haven't already, the numbers will quickly become unmanageable.
That's my point.
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Simply return them all, unfortunately until you do that they will still keep on coming, but the trouble is if they destroy there docs you cannot... Plan B would be every country must have some territories that would count if you take them on, we could repopulate South Georgia 
CM:-
NL:-
Africa is not a State, nor is it even a "Union", which seemingly our continent purports to be. If these people embarked in Libya and are then intercepted at sea, how do you return them to a country that is in effect in a state of civil war? If you are saying that any state will do in Africa then "colonialist" and "fascist" will be the least of the diatribes leveled at us, not least by the government concerned, unless of course we buy them off in which case yet another galloper is added to the perpetual roundabout...
The immediate solution seems to me is for Libya to change from failed state to functional state(s), with administration(s) that are in actual control. Which brings us to the militant Islamists. They surely are the elephant in this room, and pose a real and present danger (not least in the effects presented by the OP) to us all. I have lambasted the UN with some justification, but I laud NATO which ensured the peace in Europe (and not "Europe" which presented itself the Nobel Peace Prize for that achievement. Laughable!). It is time once again to realise the threat at our door and for NATO to revitalise and reorganise itself to confront it. It could start by trying to cut off the money that funds them. Perhaps it too should move from Brussels to Geneva?
What I don't think we should do is shirk our common humanity and refuse any refuge to any of these people. The numbers per European state are containable at the moment, being small compared to the influx from Eastern Europe for example. I take your point that unchecked it will grow ever more. Hence the need to hold them in camps and allow freedom to work and to travel only to those who we feel are genuinely fleeing terror. Hopefully the word will get back from the others that you end up penniless and possession less, interned on one of jollygreengiant's Greek islands...
the first steps have to be in Africa, hence my remarks about returning them there.
Simply return them all
The immediate solution seems to me is for Libya to change from failed state to functional state(s), with administration(s) that are in actual control. Which brings us to the militant Islamists. They surely are the elephant in this room, and pose a real and present danger (not least in the effects presented by the OP) to us all. I have lambasted the UN with some justification, but I laud NATO which ensured the peace in Europe (and not "Europe" which presented itself the Nobel Peace Prize for that achievement. Laughable!). It is time once again to realise the threat at our door and for NATO to revitalise and reorganise itself to confront it. It could start by trying to cut off the money that funds them. Perhaps it too should move from Brussels to Geneva?
What I don't think we should do is shirk our common humanity and refuse any refuge to any of these people. The numbers per European state are containable at the moment, being small compared to the influx from Eastern Europe for example. I take your point that unchecked it will grow ever more. Hence the need to hold them in camps and allow freedom to work and to travel only to those who we feel are genuinely fleeing terror. Hopefully the word will get back from the others that you end up penniless and possession less, interned on one of jollygreengiant's Greek islands...
Last edited by Chugalug2; 9th Jun 2015 at 20:21.