Jets V Heli's
Well this deteriorated fast. Good old pprune.
You think a helo is an easy target and you are almost certainly right against a single one lumbering around at height over flat terrain, flown in a non-tactical manner with no crew experience of fighter evasion and/or an RWR. However, the reality of what all of us rotary guys seem to be saying is a western crew/formation trained in evasion, employing good lookout and flying tactically is another matter entirely. Having flown and taught HvF against all manner of pointy things over ten years the only aircraft that regularly seemed able to 'win' when it got into the merge was the AlphaJet. Finding us, would of course be a different matter entirely for the AJ.
What I don't think you might appreciate (no offence meant) is there is a big difference in a 2 or 3 crew Mi8 (generally flown medium level like a FW) with no RWR and no experience of HvF vs a modern helicopter with 3 or 4 crew employing good lookout techniques, tactical low flying, route selection, RWR and trained in HvF techniques etc etc.
So I don't think its anywhere near as 'easy' as some of you make out, which is all I think that Evalu8ter was saying. He and I worked hand in hand with your brethren for a very long time and my experience as previously outlined was backed up by the debriefs received from them both in the air and afterwards on the ground. Nobody is trying to point score here, just trying to explain our experiences, which in turn is as valid as your experiences.
Interesting to hear your experiences of actual intercepts in Bosnia if you are able to share the detail....ie height, speed, terrain.....what actually happened?
You think a helo is an easy target and you are almost certainly right against a single one lumbering around at height over flat terrain, flown in a non-tactical manner with no crew experience of fighter evasion and/or an RWR. However, the reality of what all of us rotary guys seem to be saying is a western crew/formation trained in evasion, employing good lookout and flying tactically is another matter entirely. Having flown and taught HvF against all manner of pointy things over ten years the only aircraft that regularly seemed able to 'win' when it got into the merge was the AlphaJet. Finding us, would of course be a different matter entirely for the AJ.
What I don't think you might appreciate (no offence meant) is there is a big difference in a 2 or 3 crew Mi8 (generally flown medium level like a FW) with no RWR and no experience of HvF vs a modern helicopter with 3 or 4 crew employing good lookout techniques, tactical low flying, route selection, RWR and trained in HvF techniques etc etc.
So I don't think its anywhere near as 'easy' as some of you make out, which is all I think that Evalu8ter was saying. He and I worked hand in hand with your brethren for a very long time and my experience as previously outlined was backed up by the debriefs received from them both in the air and afterwards on the ground. Nobody is trying to point score here, just trying to explain our experiences, which in turn is as valid as your experiences.
Interesting to hear your experiences of actual intercepts in Bosnia if you are able to share the detail....ie height, speed, terrain.....what actually happened?
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The Falklands terrain very much favours the jet as I'm sure you are aware.
No trees, no buildings, lots of areas with not much terrain to hide in and no roads filled with vehicles. Added to this you have generally epic viz.
Try Norway and you have rather less chance
As SimonK says, references to finding Hips flown non tactically are irrelevant. It's the equivalent to shooting down a Ryanair Boeing on the Dublin run vs shooting down a B1B. Both are big, but they are a very different proposition.
The Falklands terrain very much favours the jet as I'm sure you are aware.
No trees, no buildings, lots of areas with not much terrain to hide in and no roads filled with vehicles. Added to this you have generally epic viz.
Try Norway and you have rather less chance
As SimonK says, references to finding Hips flown non tactically are irrelevant. It's the equivalent to shooting down a Ryanair Boeing on the Dublin run vs shooting down a B1B. Both are big, but they are a very different proposition.
Jets V Heli's
Surely much of the UK/FI affil, where the FJ frequently has difficulty finding the RW, is flown without AWACS support. More than likely in FRY/Iraq it was made easier.
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There is no doubt that there are many wise words written here. I spent over 20 years developing tactics for FJ to attack helos. I also flew on and lectured at a number of QHTI courses. There is no doubt that Helo Attack can be a very difficult task when flown against a small, camouflaged, very low and well flown aircraft. The deficiencies of High PRF radars against such targets are well known. Modern fighters should not have the same limitations against very low/slow targets.
The advent of Link 16 made a significant difference to the FJ capability when utilised correctly. An E3 Link picture could enhance this capability.
The F3OEU developed and used pairs tactics at night using NVGs, Link16 and ASRAAM. With all players "Lights Out" the balance swung in favour of the FJ. The ASRAAM could be used as a poor mans IRST and used to compliment the radar. Again, modern fighters with IRST and sensor fusion many of the old limitations have been removed.
The difficulty was that to be safe and proficient required Above Average skills AND a large allocation of time for currency. HQ 1Gp decided that the cost and time required for CR crews to be proficient were not worth the threat assessment.
Be there no doubt for rotary guys that the threat may not be a Hawk day VMC. The latest technology is available to most countries. If a rotary is deemed to be a high value target then it has a high risk of being detected and engaged in many theatres throughout the world.
The advent of Link 16 made a significant difference to the FJ capability when utilised correctly. An E3 Link picture could enhance this capability.
The F3OEU developed and used pairs tactics at night using NVGs, Link16 and ASRAAM. With all players "Lights Out" the balance swung in favour of the FJ. The ASRAAM could be used as a poor mans IRST and used to compliment the radar. Again, modern fighters with IRST and sensor fusion many of the old limitations have been removed.
The difficulty was that to be safe and proficient required Above Average skills AND a large allocation of time for currency. HQ 1Gp decided that the cost and time required for CR crews to be proficient were not worth the threat assessment.
Be there no doubt for rotary guys that the threat may not be a Hawk day VMC. The latest technology is available to most countries. If a rotary is deemed to be a high value target then it has a high risk of being detected and engaged in many theatres throughout the world.
Last edited by Dominator2; 13th Apr 2015 at 11:58.
OK, some more good words here, but I can tell you this. Helicopters are detectable by modern air-to-air radars and can be engaged with modern airborne weapons.
With respect, you guys may be confusing close-quarters evasion training with the real world. If you want a fighter to get tied up with you in a visual fight for training purposes and then believe that that's how it's going to be for real then good luck to you.
I mean no disrespect to the helo community whatsoever. I think the FJ guys -if you'll let them - would be a much better ally to you than you think. But, you shouldn't think that the fighters cannot find and kill you. Fortunately, and contrary to the tone from some of the helo guys here, RAF fighters are actually on your side.
With respect, you guys may be confusing close-quarters evasion training with the real world. If you want a fighter to get tied up with you in a visual fight for training purposes and then believe that that's how it's going to be for real then good luck to you.
I mean no disrespect to the helo community whatsoever. I think the FJ guys -if you'll let them - would be a much better ally to you than you think. But, you shouldn't think that the fighters cannot find and kill you. Fortunately, and contrary to the tone from some of the helo guys here, RAF fighters are actually on your side.
Courtney,
Apologies if my tone is offensive to you but your reluctance to accept the experience of others is starting to get a little wearing. I've spent several hours with high class FJ drivers discussing and disecting our mutual tactics to mutual benefit, including flying several on the JS (most of whom were impressed by what we could do and became better at hunting us afterwards...) I'm sorry if my comments irk your ego, but you don 't seem to accept that anybody else has a valid opinion.
Of course RW are detectable by radars/mx, no-one ever said they weren't, but the helo (if properly equipped and trained) does have options & TTPs to defeat most BVR threats. Things change - ASRAAM caused us to rethink some tactics, but with help from the FJ community we tried some solutions. Likewise, I flew several sorties helping the typhoon to calibrate the radar and hone their TTPs when the OEU was standing up. Please don't assume we don't talk to RAF FJ crews - we do, a lot. Sorry I didn't get the chance to talk to you.
I can't expect you to understand what's happened in my cockpit during several hundred 'engagements' any more than I yours. I've had to play dumb for F3 convexees to take valid shots (before, at the request of the OCU staff, proving it's not easy..) and I 've also had to ask Typhoon guys to dumb their system down to better prepare my studes against the likely threat. It's called teamwork and it's really quite useful. That little part of 4/84 about sortie aims ......
In short, you haven't got a death ray and I haven't got a cloaking device....therefore kit, terrain and training make a difference.
HE - oh dear, weak reversionary banter......
Apologies if my tone is offensive to you but your reluctance to accept the experience of others is starting to get a little wearing. I've spent several hours with high class FJ drivers discussing and disecting our mutual tactics to mutual benefit, including flying several on the JS (most of whom were impressed by what we could do and became better at hunting us afterwards...) I'm sorry if my comments irk your ego, but you don 't seem to accept that anybody else has a valid opinion.
Of course RW are detectable by radars/mx, no-one ever said they weren't, but the helo (if properly equipped and trained) does have options & TTPs to defeat most BVR threats. Things change - ASRAAM caused us to rethink some tactics, but with help from the FJ community we tried some solutions. Likewise, I flew several sorties helping the typhoon to calibrate the radar and hone their TTPs when the OEU was standing up. Please don't assume we don't talk to RAF FJ crews - we do, a lot. Sorry I didn't get the chance to talk to you.
I can't expect you to understand what's happened in my cockpit during several hundred 'engagements' any more than I yours. I've had to play dumb for F3 convexees to take valid shots (before, at the request of the OCU staff, proving it's not easy..) and I 've also had to ask Typhoon guys to dumb their system down to better prepare my studes against the likely threat. It's called teamwork and it's really quite useful. That little part of 4/84 about sortie aims ......
In short, you haven't got a death ray and I haven't got a cloaking device....therefore kit, terrain and training make a difference.
HE - oh dear, weak reversionary banter......
High_Expect Courtney.... Perhaps they're having flashbacks to their streaming during training?
Would you like fish with those chips sir?
Last edited by SimonK; 14th Apr 2015 at 07:00.
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Gents,
Many thanks for the many replies, lots of great gen there to include in my future presentations and discussions on the topic. I'll send out a few PM's over the next week or so to some of you to expand on some points made if that's OK?
FWIW, my own experience of participating in, and instructing ET has been a very mixed bag. I have been taken apart by some very good FJ drivers, we have evaded with ease others. One Tiffie pilot managed to direct his wingman, give us running commentary of the effectiveness (or not!) of our formation manoeuvres, and effectively fight his own jet at the same time. Hats off to whoever that was!
On the other end of the scale, I've been up against Typhoon/Hawk/F3/Gripen pilots who, despite using the full capabilities of their aircraft against us, were unable to find us let alone successfully engage. This includes "on the towline" and bouncing us at unknown points on our route.
I guess it all comes down to man over machine?
Guzz.
Many thanks for the many replies, lots of great gen there to include in my future presentations and discussions on the topic. I'll send out a few PM's over the next week or so to some of you to expand on some points made if that's OK?
FWIW, my own experience of participating in, and instructing ET has been a very mixed bag. I have been taken apart by some very good FJ drivers, we have evaded with ease others. One Tiffie pilot managed to direct his wingman, give us running commentary of the effectiveness (or not!) of our formation manoeuvres, and effectively fight his own jet at the same time. Hats off to whoever that was!
On the other end of the scale, I've been up against Typhoon/Hawk/F3/Gripen pilots who, despite using the full capabilities of their aircraft against us, were unable to find us let alone successfully engage. This includes "on the towline" and bouncing us at unknown points on our route.
I guess it all comes down to man over machine?
Guzz.
Last edited by Guzz; 14th Apr 2015 at 09:02.
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I've been up against Typhoon/Hawk/F3/Gripen pilots who, despite using the full capabilities of their aircraft against us, were unable to find us let alone successfully engage.
F-35 pilots to wear $400,000 helmets that can see through the plane | Fox News
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Evalu8ter.
I don't believe that Helio affil was ever part of the F3 OCU syllabus. It was included in the QWI cse, for a while, then ditched.
Tourist.
The terrain in the Gulf is very like that of the FI, no trees, traffic, buildings etc (OK, it's different colour). I haven't been to war in Norway.
O-P
I don't believe that Helio affil was ever part of the F3 OCU syllabus. It was included in the QWI cse, for a while, then ditched.
Tourist.
The terrain in the Gulf is very like that of the FI, no trees, traffic, buildings etc (OK, it's different colour). I haven't been to war in Norway.
O-P
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Do you think that the helicopters tend to hang around the empty bits of the gulf?
It's funny, because I seem to remember lots of buildings trees etc around the gulf, in fact if I look out my window, I am surrounded by a sprawling endless city. Lot like he rest of the peopled areas of the gulf really. Afghan obviously gets to have terrain as well.
Do you think that the helicopters tend to hang around the empty bits of the gulf?
It's funny, because I seem to remember lots of buildings trees etc around the gulf, in fact if I look out my window, I am surrounded by a sprawling endless city. Lot like he rest of the peopled areas of the gulf really. Afghan obviously gets to have terrain as well.
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Can I ask why tactics, which are "Confidential" at least and normally "Secret", are being discussed in this open forum, particularly by serving members of HM Forces?
This thread should be locked and deleted.
Poor Social Media discipline chaps!
This thread should be locked and deleted.
Poor Social Media discipline chaps!
Gentleman Aviator
Oops.
We let the "go really low and hide behind sh1t" secret out of the bag....
We let the "go really low and hide behind sh1t" secret out of the bag....
.... oh b%gger ......
Mogwi: Think I am the only UK FJ driver to have done it for real: I Puma with wingtip vortices, one A109A gunship with 30mm and a further (landed) Puma with 30mm, all in the space of a couple of mins. I have also done a fair bit of fighter evasion when I used to fly Wessex. But don't tell my old mother - I told her I played piano in a brothel!
Details in my book "Hostile Skies" or PM me.
Details in my book "Hostile Skies" or PM me.
Perhaps from "Hostile Skies" or another read, another piece of advice for the helo driver wanting to avoid the FJ is to avoid flying above water as much as possible. The moving disk over water is much easier to pick out than it is over land.
