TU-95 Intercept

[dikastes]

ORAC

Aircraft used in military, customs and police services shall be deemed to be state aircraft........

I'd like to see you fly your state aircraft through UK airspace without following the rules of the air. Can you imagine the consequences.

How do you think the RAF conducts it's activities in the London FIR? How does a Typhoon fly all the way from Coningsby to the South West of England, to Wales, to the Lake district, into Scotland. They talk to military ATC.

An American KC135 heading for Mildenhall or even Ramstein in SW Germany, Do they just fly through the London FIR without following any rules what so ever? Do they not talk to Civil ATC and military ATC for an ATC service to keep them separated from other aircraft?

The concept of Air Traffic Control is complex and airspace is busy. Without ATC, without rules, without ICAO SARPS and rules of the Air, there would be utter chaos.

So, come on tell us, what's your experience and knowledge of UK airspace and Rules of the Air?

[Pontius Navigator]

Disastes, suffice to say you are incorrect.

The phrase used is "due regard" meaning that military accepts due regard for safety of flight.

We would try and observe VFR but frequently that would not be possible.

On one occasion tha

[ORAC]

I'd like to see you fly your state aircraft through UK airspace without following the rules of the air. Can you imagine the consequences.

Dear god, are you incapable of following a link, or deliberately ignorant....

Come back when you read and understand the agreed regulations......


Article 3

Civil and state aircraft...........

c) No state aircraft of a contracting State shall fly over the territory of another State or land thereon without authorization by special agreement or otherwise, and in accordance with the terms thereof.

[Cows getting bigger]

I give up. Muppetry wins, once again.

[ORAC]

ORAC....

So, come on tell us, what's your experience and knowledge of UK airspace and Rules of the Air?

Hmmm. Joined the RAF as an air defence controller in 1975 and served in air defence for the next 25 years. Qualified in all AD roles from IDRO to MC. Served several tours as an FA and MC intercepting Russian aircraft on a day to day basis. As an MC ran the air defences of the UK on a routine daily basis. My log book shows several hundred QRA intercepts of Bears. Left in 1999 after tours in SOC UK and the UKCAOC.

Could I ask your equivalent experience?

[dikastes]

ORAC....

So, come on tell us, what's your experience and knowledge of UK airspace and Rules of the Air?

Hmmm. Joined the RAF as an air defence controller in 1975 and served in air defence for the next 25 years. Qualified in all AD roles from IDRO to MC. Served several tours as an FA and MC intercepting Russian aircraft on a day to day basis. As an MC ran the air defences of the UK on a routine daily basis. My log book shows several hundred QRA intercepts of Bears. Left in 1999 after tours in SOC UK and the UKCAOC.

Could I ask your equivalent experience?

35 years in civil Air Traffic working for a world leader in ATC. Having to answer phone calls to ADNC asking about unidentified aircraft that they failed to identify. Having to explain to civil aircraft why they had just had an air miss with a foreign aircraft over the North Sea because the mil pilot knew nothing about controlled airspace and the military controller thought taking five through some of the worlds busiest airspace was adequate. Having to vector civil aircraft around QRA who flew into controlled airspace whilst enroute to intercepting a PLOC aircraft causing a loss of separation between civil airliners, not once but twice in the space of minutes. Even the RAF can cause havoc in the London FIR because the pilots think they are Topgun and the mil controller hasn't a sodding clue when it comes to controlling aeroplanes. So yes, I have a little experience.

[Cows getting bigger]

Pity you haven't got a clue about the legal framework.

[Pure Pursuit]

Dikastes

There is nothing wrong with taking 5k on civil traffic over the North sea, doing so removes the need to continuously call a busy Tyne/Humber sector chap and allows the WC to concentrate on providing a service to the AD a/c and the ATC chap to do his job. ATC will almost always call us and advise us of an a/c that is due to start a decent etc, that's when coordination/planning come into play. We don't play in Class D and only cross A as per SOPs. Now, taking 5 miles.... I'd agree that it's not the best idea in the world!

During QRA launches, the info flow between the mil and civil sectors is continuous and if the Typhoons need to cross the spine, it is well managed, follows a practices set of procedures and is always safe. Let's not forget the urgency of a Q launch and the need to intercept aircraft as expeditiously as possible.

IMHO, there are too many folk at NATS who do not understand the QRA mission and as a result, think that pilots are playing 'Topgun' in the FIR. How do I know this? I've sat next to plenty of NATS controllers during visits to Swanwick and spoken to them about day to day ASACS work and QRA.

[pr00ne]

dikastes,

I think this...

"and the mil controller hasn't a sodding clue when it comes to controlling aeroplanes."


...tells us all we need to know.

Bit of a chip on the old shoulder?

[Pontius Navigator]

Dim, what does the phrase

"Air Defence priority flight" mean to you?

What if the intruder was hostile? What price a few spilled martinis cf a terrorist act?

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Whenurhappy

Accordingly, the two countries that I am referring to (and anyone in NATO can probably work out which two) frequently have armed stand-offs when military aircraft from their neighbours get airborne and nudge the FIR boundaries.

Agreed, they would either reject our flight plan if no dipclear or make a diplomatic protest.

Mind you two other countries also got twitchy if we were carrying bombs. Oh the joys of a bomb bay