Scum
I don't think Western politicians, especially US ones, have never understood the Arab/Muslim mentality, especially loyalty to their religion.
A disturbing aspect of the video not much reported on is that the last few minutes is a scrolling list of Jordanian FJ pilots with their pictures, personal details, and satellite pictures of their home addresses...
I can`t help but wonder what the British government`s reaction would be if it was an RAF pilot. Another outraged yet empty pledge to bring the perpetrators to justice, I suspect, with nothing to back it up.
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Rule 1 of any sort of conflict is don't do exactly what your enemy wants you to. A huge overreaction, however understandable, preferably with lots of collateral damage, would suit IS perfectly.
Here is an article in German Spiegel magazine that might be of interest, as it shows a bit of what IS was after with this abominable act.
Summary: The murder of Lt Kasasbeh threatens to widen fractures within Jordanian society. Their governments policy of fighting the IS is polarizing the country; many citizens do not understand why Jordan fights IS, but not the forces of al-Assad, who is just as guilty of murdering innocent civilians.
There are groups sympathizing with IS within Jordan who are getting increasingly angry with the government. Last year, there have been small scale demonstration in support of IS in the unemployment-riddled South of the country that often feels neglected by Amman. It is feared that sympathizers might attack targets in Jordan instead of travelling to Syria or Iraq.
The civil wars in neighbouring Iraq and Syria exert much pressure on small Jordan. With its nearly 7 million citizens, it has given shelter to about 800.000 refugees. This number is rumoured to increase to above a million until end of 2015. Many Jordanians are unhappy about this, as the refugees are seen to take up their jobs and drive housing rents up.
Highly unusually, public criticism of King Abdullah II was heard in recent weeks. The influential family of recently murdered Lt al-Kasaesbeh staged protests even while official negotiations between Jordan and IS on his release and exchange against imprisoned terrorists were ongoing.
The al-Kasaesbeh tribe is of some influence in Jordans south. They are allied with the government and help it keep this part of the country under control. Rumors say that the king had learned about the murder way before the family was informed.
The tribe is highly upset and demands decisive action from the government including massive attacks against IS.
The king is forced to react and tries to show strength. Two condemned terrorists have been hanged after the video had been published: 44year old Sadschida al-Rischawi and Ziad al-Karbouli. The long-term effects of these executions are doubtful and possibly result in deeper polarization of the country.
So Jordans actions could be construed as a success for IS: The terror organisation can now claim the two executed islamists as martyrs for their cause.
IS is ruthless and a disgrace to every other human being. But one thing they are not: stupid. Burning out this cancer of the earth is necessary; however, this needs to be well planned and not based on knee-jerk reactions.
Summary: The murder of Lt Kasasbeh threatens to widen fractures within Jordanian society. Their governments policy of fighting the IS is polarizing the country; many citizens do not understand why Jordan fights IS, but not the forces of al-Assad, who is just as guilty of murdering innocent civilians.
There are groups sympathizing with IS within Jordan who are getting increasingly angry with the government. Last year, there have been small scale demonstration in support of IS in the unemployment-riddled South of the country that often feels neglected by Amman. It is feared that sympathizers might attack targets in Jordan instead of travelling to Syria or Iraq.
The civil wars in neighbouring Iraq and Syria exert much pressure on small Jordan. With its nearly 7 million citizens, it has given shelter to about 800.000 refugees. This number is rumoured to increase to above a million until end of 2015. Many Jordanians are unhappy about this, as the refugees are seen to take up their jobs and drive housing rents up.
Highly unusually, public criticism of King Abdullah II was heard in recent weeks. The influential family of recently murdered Lt al-Kasaesbeh staged protests even while official negotiations between Jordan and IS on his release and exchange against imprisoned terrorists were ongoing.
The al-Kasaesbeh tribe is of some influence in Jordans south. They are allied with the government and help it keep this part of the country under control. Rumors say that the king had learned about the murder way before the family was informed.
The tribe is highly upset and demands decisive action from the government including massive attacks against IS.
The king is forced to react and tries to show strength. Two condemned terrorists have been hanged after the video had been published: 44year old Sadschida al-Rischawi and Ziad al-Karbouli. The long-term effects of these executions are doubtful and possibly result in deeper polarization of the country.
So Jordans actions could be construed as a success for IS: The terror organisation can now claim the two executed islamists as martyrs for their cause.
IS is ruthless and a disgrace to every other human being. But one thing they are not: stupid. Burning out this cancer of the earth is necessary; however, this needs to be well planned and not based on knee-jerk reactions.
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At times like this, the words of Kenny Everett spring to mind... "round 'em all up, put 'em in a field & bomb the b'stards"...
Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
I don't think Western politicians, especially US ones, have never understood the Arab/Muslim mentality, especially loyalty to their religion.
Unfortunately that's what was supposed to happen in Afghanistan as well; how did that turn out. Let us hope the wise beards amongst the Jordanian government and tribes react in a decisive but clinical manner. Two executions of already convicted terrorists will never be enough, there will be more to this. But I hope it will be surgical rather than feeding the beast by simply lashing out, although that would probably feel far more satisfying at the time.
As for der Spiegel, last week they had a fill scale investigation in to Syria building a nuclear plant in secret on the Lebanese border. I wouldn't take what they say at face value without doing a bit of checking first.
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One way I look at it is the beheadings are seen more or less as a legitimate way of execution in the Middle East, so a lot of detractors wanting Jordan out of the conflict at home did not view the murders as anything out of the normal killing wise.
However, I feel that setting fire to a caged prisoner is a different entity altogether and something that even Jordanian hard line Muslims are offended by, that far from acting as a catalyst to cause further dissent at home in Jordan may have just done the opposite and cemented a will to see IS destroyed.
However, I feel that setting fire to a caged prisoner is a different entity altogether and something that even Jordanian hard line Muslims are offended by, that far from acting as a catalyst to cause further dissent at home in Jordan may have just done the opposite and cemented a will to see IS destroyed.
It seems that IS is even in violation of Islam with the murder of Lt al-Kasasba.
There is a hadith spoken by Muhammed himself that goes:
There is even a fatwa out already. Sheikh Ahmed al-Tajib has decreed that this deed demands the most severe punishment under Sharia law: Crucifixion, other forms of the death penalty, and the amputation of limbs.
It may be that this terrible murder got something like a self-cleansing system within Islam to slowly grind into motion...
There is a hadith spoken by Muhammed himself that goes:
Originally Posted by Muhammad
Regarding The Abhorrance Of Burning The Enemy With Fire: (...) It is not proper to punish with fire except the Lord of fire.
It may be that this terrible murder got something like a self-cleansing system within Islam to slowly grind into motion...
Last edited by Tu.114; 4th Feb 2015 at 16:20. Reason: Ortography
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Good post, Tu.144 
The only way this abomination will be resolved is by Muslims, using the Holy Quran to expose the pseudo-muslims of IS.
Sadly, Western nations throwing bombs at them may kill a few/lot, but that will not ever resolve the issue. I pray to my God that for once the various sects within Islam will combine constructively to expunge this awful collection of people. But history is not on our/their side, as they happily continue to slaughter 'the wrong sort of Muslim'.
They may grow up one day, but I'll be long dead before that happens.
The only way this abomination will be resolved is by Muslims, using the Holy Quran to expose the pseudo-muslims of IS.
Sadly, Western nations throwing bombs at them may kill a few/lot, but that will not ever resolve the issue. I pray to my God that for once the various sects within Islam will combine constructively to expunge this awful collection of people. But history is not on our/their side, as they happily continue to slaughter 'the wrong sort of Muslim'.
They may grow up one day, but I'll be long dead before that happens.
Tu.114,
You hit on one of the problems the West face in understanding and dealing with Islamic fundamentalists. Islam does not have an organised structure or unified leader in the way that, say, the Roman Catholic Church has the Pope and it's structure, or the CofE the Archbishop, synods etc. So interpretation is down to the various Imans, scholars and tribal leaders. Each of whom has their own interpretation of what the Koran meant. So often, you listen to the leader that says what you want to hear.
It also leads to perceived insults to the religion being felt on a much more personal level, as there is no leadership body to react to insults.
You hit on one of the problems the West face in understanding and dealing with Islamic fundamentalists. Islam does not have an organised structure or unified leader in the way that, say, the Roman Catholic Church has the Pope and it's structure, or the CofE the Archbishop, synods etc. So interpretation is down to the various Imans, scholars and tribal leaders. Each of whom has their own interpretation of what the Koran meant. So often, you listen to the leader that says what you want to hear.
It also leads to perceived insults to the religion being felt on a much more personal level, as there is no leadership body to react to insults.
The multipolarity of the Islamic world is a problem indeed. There are not just Muslims: there is the Sunni and the Shia variety, and from there on, it gets complicated. A bit indeed like the Christian churches that are not even begun to be described by calling them Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant - there is no man who is considered a supreme authority by all of the denominations. To put it a bit bluntly: the Holy Trinity can be agreed upon, but beyond that it starts to get fuzzy. And indeed, there are Christian denominations that are highly offended by things like a pork roast dinner that is very normal to others.
But of course, there are persons within Christianity that have somewhat higher authority than others. Even though not everyone will follow the Pope´s teachings to the letter, he will at least be listened to by many. About the same, but to a slightly lesser extent, can be said for the Archbishop of Constantinople, who is heard in most Orthodox churches.
And the same can be said for Islam. If the al-Azhar University of Cairo speaks, it will be heard by many Sunnites. To get back to the abominable murder that was the cause of this thread - it seems indeed that the Grand Imam of al-Azhar Mohamed Ahmed el-Tayeb has spoken, highly condemning this and calling for most severe punishments to be inflicted on the murderers.
One will wait to see where this leads to. The roots left aside (as discussing them is only of academic interest and the present situation is a given fact); it is however clear that cleaning up this mess is an intra-Islamic problem that cannot and will not be solved with Western, Eastern and other non-Islamic involvement - as has been said by several other posters on here.
But of course, there are persons within Christianity that have somewhat higher authority than others. Even though not everyone will follow the Pope´s teachings to the letter, he will at least be listened to by many. About the same, but to a slightly lesser extent, can be said for the Archbishop of Constantinople, who is heard in most Orthodox churches.
And the same can be said for Islam. If the al-Azhar University of Cairo speaks, it will be heard by many Sunnites. To get back to the abominable murder that was the cause of this thread - it seems indeed that the Grand Imam of al-Azhar Mohamed Ahmed el-Tayeb has spoken, highly condemning this and calling for most severe punishments to be inflicted on the murderers.
One will wait to see where this leads to. The roots left aside (as discussing them is only of academic interest and the present situation is a given fact); it is however clear that cleaning up this mess is an intra-Islamic problem that cannot and will not be solved with Western, Eastern and other non-Islamic involvement - as has been said by several other posters on here.
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Glad to see this sheikh chappie is agreeing with my post above, however I do not think it will bother IS one iota what they think or say, as they have already appear to have rewritten the Koran to suit their needs regardless of what it actually says...
That said, the rejection and revulsion that this is causing throughout the Islamic world may
1. cut off their funding and
2. Cause the rest of the Arab world to take matters into their own hands.
That said, the rejection and revulsion that this is causing throughout the Islamic world may
1. cut off their funding and
2. Cause the rest of the Arab world to take matters into their own hands.
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2. Cause the rest of the Arab world to take matters into their own hands.
With friends like those ....
And create a martyr or two in the process, and have all the ensuing rage directed at the (western?) power that dropped this bomb?
No, this is not the solution.
I would rather suggest the following: Western meddling in this corner of the world has proven of little help already several times. So have the Islamic countries sort out their affairs themselves with outside assistance limited to the provision of supplies (preferably humanitarian aid, but if it needs be also arms) at maximum. While this is going on, limit the actions of the Western countries (and everyone else) to enforcing their laws at home properly for a change to keep the fight from seeping into and being fought in countries that have nothing to do with it any more.
Might take a while and it will likely be not more pretty to watch than todays chaos, but I dare say that after a period of turmoil, this will end in more stable conditions than those found today.
No, this is not the solution.
I would rather suggest the following: Western meddling in this corner of the world has proven of little help already several times. So have the Islamic countries sort out their affairs themselves with outside assistance limited to the provision of supplies (preferably humanitarian aid, but if it needs be also arms) at maximum. While this is going on, limit the actions of the Western countries (and everyone else) to enforcing their laws at home properly for a change to keep the fight from seeping into and being fought in countries that have nothing to do with it any more.
Might take a while and it will likely be not more pretty to watch than todays chaos, but I dare say that after a period of turmoil, this will end in more stable conditions than those found today.
Jordan's reaction to the bestial murder of their pilot is fitting, and surely serves to tell the world that these scum are not worthy of the title enemy of war, because they respect no standard of decency, let alone standard of respect for captured prisoners. In Britain we have many, known to the security forces, returned IS fighters. I would have no qualms in the arrest, and deportation to Jordan as gallows fodder of these scum, no doubt, the hand wringing masses of Wasteminster would vote such a move down, but I wonder if the will of the British people were to prevail, that political will would founder. We are rapidly approaching a point now where the appeasers (LibLabCon being part of that movement) will start to lose national support for their unerring preference of migrant rights over traditional beliefs. One way or another, the hideous and barbaric treatment of this young man adds a new dimension to terrorism, which needs to be responded to in the harshest way. The man was a fellow serviceman, whilst not in the Air Force I served. I only hope that his family will believe his sacrifice was worthwhile. His service has my utmost respect.
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Tu114, if they are all dead to a man, there will be no one left to fight. Use German kessel techniques, isolate concentrations of resistance, prevent movement using local forces to form a cordon then drop every building.
Last edited by VinRouge; 4th Feb 2015 at 19:47.
