OPeration Corporate AARI'S
A quick question. I was researching in the Argentine archives, and I find that some of the Vulcan departures (BB4, for example) were warned to the islands and mainland airfields.
I suspect the spy was the Primorye AGI deployed nearby.
Other info researched is about planes in ASI, and maybe the info came from a sattellite.
So que question, Vulcan crews expected total surprise over the targer (AFTER BB1) or they assume someone was spying in behalf the Argentines?
Best regards!
I suspect the spy was the Primorye AGI deployed nearby.
Other info researched is about planes in ASI, and maybe the info came from a sattellite.
So que question, Vulcan crews expected total surprise over the targer (AFTER BB1) or they assume someone was spying in behalf the Argentines?
Best regards!
Following the first 2 Black Buck missions, Black Bucks 4-6 were planned as SEAD missions (Black Buck 3 was cancelled due to weather). The crew of BB4, 5 and 6 were aware of the Soviet AGI moored some 15 nm to the south of Ascension Island and were not naive about its activities or motives. However, when BB5 broke the radar horizon at around 40 nm with a climb to 12 000 ft from low level, it appeared to the crew that they had achieved an element of surprise (due to the response of the ARI-18228 Radar Warning Receiver). Black Buck 6 was a little different and the crew always held a suspicion that their arrival had not been totally un-expected.
Some 30 years after the event, information came to light on this forum that the crew of Grupo de Artilleria Antiaerea (GAA) 601, manning a Sky Guard Fire Control Unit, had indeed received a tip-off. Unfortunately, that information did not prevent the destruction of their unit and the death of 4 of its crew.
Roll the clock forward again to 2014 and this forum was used to publicise the visit of a number of Argentinian Air Force veterans to the UK last summer; I think the historian arranging the visit was a gentleman named Andrew Smith who resides in Budapest. The Super Etendard and Sky Hawk veterans, along with the commander of GAA 601 back in 1982, withdrew from the visit at late notice. The Vulcan 597 crew never did get the opportunity to discuss those events with the Sky Guard veteran, discussions that may have clarified their assumption and suspicion one way or the other.
For those interested in the previously un-told story of Black Bucks 4, 5 and 6, the truth of those 3 missions can be found in Tony Blackman's book, Vulcan Boys (link here).
http://www.blackmanbooks.co.uk/vulca...apter%2014.pdf
Some 30 years after the event, information came to light on this forum that the crew of Grupo de Artilleria Antiaerea (GAA) 601, manning a Sky Guard Fire Control Unit, had indeed received a tip-off. Unfortunately, that information did not prevent the destruction of their unit and the death of 4 of its crew.
Roll the clock forward again to 2014 and this forum was used to publicise the visit of a number of Argentinian Air Force veterans to the UK last summer; I think the historian arranging the visit was a gentleman named Andrew Smith who resides in Budapest. The Super Etendard and Sky Hawk veterans, along with the commander of GAA 601 back in 1982, withdrew from the visit at late notice. The Vulcan 597 crew never did get the opportunity to discuss those events with the Sky Guard veteran, discussions that may have clarified their assumption and suspicion one way or the other.
For those interested in the previously un-told story of Black Bucks 4, 5 and 6, the truth of those 3 missions can be found in Tony Blackman's book, Vulcan Boys (link here).
http://www.blackmanbooks.co.uk/vulca...apter%2014.pdf
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Yes, F/l Ian Clifford was indeed a Victor Mk 2 captain. I had the unfortunate opportunity to fly with him, as the crew chief, on a couple of occassions. The Ascension situation is best left to others.
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Operation Corporate Flt Clifford
Many thanks for the info on the above any more information from anything to do with Corporate gratefully received
Roger Brooks
Roger Brooks
Hi Davran
You are correct in that the meeting in May suffered in attendence. The first problem was that we sent an open invitation to as many former air force pilots as possible to try to increase the attendance, which included some serving officers, and the knowledge reached higher levels and it was made know to those planning to attend that their visit to the UK wouldn't been seen through favourable eyes, and their UK embassy (which with the current ambassador having a very aggressive policy regarding the islands) starting to ask for lists of attendees for a meeting which was meant to be "private". Needless to say, cold feet all round.
As far as the GADA 601 chap, he didn't arrive in the UK on the saturday as planned, and we only got an email from him saying he wasn't coming on the Sunday. It turned out that he'd gone to Argentina to attend to a sick relative and sort out a residential home for her. Quite why he didn't tell either myself or the Argentine historian who was organising them is beyond me. As the GADA 601 chap was the instigator of this "meeting", it was somewhat unfortunate. He does travel to Europe once a year, and if you guys do want to meet him, I suggest contacting him through his PPrune username and sorting something out directly with him. He's a really nice chap and has reasonable English.
So, from having a good range of people coming over, we ended up with just a couple, which was a real shame.
However, one of those that turned up, who was head of maintenance of the Dagger squadron at one of the mainland bases, confirmed that they had prior warning of the Vulcan attack on the 1st May, and indeed had flown their daggers away from the base that night. They did not know the destination of the mission to be flown. How did they know this - for me there is only one credible answer, and the same one that provided satellite intel on the movements of the fleet that enable planning of the exocet raids.
Recently we have had more success with connecting veterans. a few weeks ago meeting took place in Buenos Aires between a COAN naval pilot who discovered the landing fleet on the 21st May and the Lynx pilot who he nearly shot down before he saw the ships and went for them instead. That meeting would not have been possible without this forum, through which I tracked down the Lynx chap. Thanks Pprune.
Cheers
Andy
You are correct in that the meeting in May suffered in attendence. The first problem was that we sent an open invitation to as many former air force pilots as possible to try to increase the attendance, which included some serving officers, and the knowledge reached higher levels and it was made know to those planning to attend that their visit to the UK wouldn't been seen through favourable eyes, and their UK embassy (which with the current ambassador having a very aggressive policy regarding the islands) starting to ask for lists of attendees for a meeting which was meant to be "private". Needless to say, cold feet all round.
As far as the GADA 601 chap, he didn't arrive in the UK on the saturday as planned, and we only got an email from him saying he wasn't coming on the Sunday. It turned out that he'd gone to Argentina to attend to a sick relative and sort out a residential home for her. Quite why he didn't tell either myself or the Argentine historian who was organising them is beyond me. As the GADA 601 chap was the instigator of this "meeting", it was somewhat unfortunate. He does travel to Europe once a year, and if you guys do want to meet him, I suggest contacting him through his PPrune username and sorting something out directly with him. He's a really nice chap and has reasonable English.
So, from having a good range of people coming over, we ended up with just a couple, which was a real shame.
However, one of those that turned up, who was head of maintenance of the Dagger squadron at one of the mainland bases, confirmed that they had prior warning of the Vulcan attack on the 1st May, and indeed had flown their daggers away from the base that night. They did not know the destination of the mission to be flown. How did they know this - for me there is only one credible answer, and the same one that provided satellite intel on the movements of the fleet that enable planning of the exocet raids.
Recently we have had more success with connecting veterans. a few weeks ago meeting took place in Buenos Aires between a COAN naval pilot who discovered the landing fleet on the 21st May and the Lynx pilot who he nearly shot down before he saw the ships and went for them instead. That meeting would not have been possible without this forum, through which I tracked down the Lynx chap. Thanks Pprune.
Cheers
Andy
Black Buck One's planned ingress did rely on an element of surprise to enhance its chances of survival. Intel suggested that the airfield was defended by a combination of 35mm Oerlikan guns and/or Roland surface-to-air missiles. Black Buck 1 also benefitied from carrying the Westinghouse -10 ECM pod on one of the Skybolt pylons that was primed with a deception jamming programme. Remaining above a sanctuary height of 12 000 ft assured it of a low risk of attrition to surface-to-air weapon systems.
Black Bucks 5 and 6 were an entirely different matter though. Both Skybolt pylons were taken up by Shrike AGM-45 anti-radiation missiles and so Vulcan 597 was not afforded the protection of any ECM capability. An element of surprise was only required to ensure that Argentinian air-to-air defences were not pre-alerted and that Black Bucks 5 and 6 were not met by Daggers on CAP.
Following ingress at low level and a climb to 12 000 ft, Black Bucks 5 and 6 had to announce their presence and go active to try and entice Argentinian defences to illuminate them. An ARM such as Shrike needed to home in on an active radar to be effective. Indeed, Black Buck 6 descended from its sanctuary height into the MEZ from a 20 degree dive and bottomed out as low as 6 000 ft so as to entice the Sky Guard radar to illuminate Vulcan 597 and the Super Oerlikan guns to open fire. In this manner it was able to gain a firing solution on the Sky Guard fire control unit and destroy it with a direct hit.
Any intel that the Soviet AGI provided would have enabled the Argentinians to man a CAP at the appropriate time if they decided that was a priority. Or was it more important to retain the Daggers for defence of the mainland?
The full story of these missions can be found in the link I provided earlier to the chapter in 'Vulcan Boys'. The first time in over 30 years that the truth of these missions has finally been recounted.
Black Bucks 5 and 6 were an entirely different matter though. Both Skybolt pylons were taken up by Shrike AGM-45 anti-radiation missiles and so Vulcan 597 was not afforded the protection of any ECM capability. An element of surprise was only required to ensure that Argentinian air-to-air defences were not pre-alerted and that Black Bucks 5 and 6 were not met by Daggers on CAP.
Following ingress at low level and a climb to 12 000 ft, Black Bucks 5 and 6 had to announce their presence and go active to try and entice Argentinian defences to illuminate them. An ARM such as Shrike needed to home in on an active radar to be effective. Indeed, Black Buck 6 descended from its sanctuary height into the MEZ from a 20 degree dive and bottomed out as low as 6 000 ft so as to entice the Sky Guard radar to illuminate Vulcan 597 and the Super Oerlikan guns to open fire. In this manner it was able to gain a firing solution on the Sky Guard fire control unit and destroy it with a direct hit.
Any intel that the Soviet AGI provided would have enabled the Argentinians to man a CAP at the appropriate time if they decided that was a priority. Or was it more important to retain the Daggers for defence of the mainland?
The full story of these missions can be found in the link I provided earlier to the chapter in 'Vulcan Boys'. The first time in over 30 years that the truth of these missions has finally been recounted.
