ARCC Kinloss to close
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ARCC Kinloss to close
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And so another Brick is removed from the Wall around the UK 
So if you hail from north of Lincolnshire, where is there the RAF can now offer you for a chance to work?
A handful of QFIs at Linton, plus ops and ATC... all due to move to Valley in a few years. A tiny number of pilots on 100 Sqn and JFACTSU at Leeming, plus some FTRS UAS/AEF types... a few SAR guys at Boulmer about to be civilianised, leaving just the ABMs... more reservist pilots at Leuchars and Glasgow on UASs, and then a decent-sized base at Lossiemouth.
So with Linton for the chop in or around 2017/18, and the Hawk T1 dying at the same time (and quite possibly 100 Sqn with it), that means aircraft jobs will stop as far north as Scampton and not restart until Lossiemouth.
Linton's a base close to my heart, and it strikes me that all the basing review stuff I've ever read pays a lot of attention to circuit congestion, operating areas, access to the right training, ac parking and storage etc. But not a single but asks where people might want to work.
A handful of QFIs at Linton, plus ops and ATC... all due to move to Valley in a few years. A tiny number of pilots on 100 Sqn and JFACTSU at Leeming, plus some FTRS UAS/AEF types... a few SAR guys at Boulmer about to be civilianised, leaving just the ABMs... more reservist pilots at Leuchars and Glasgow on UASs, and then a decent-sized base at Lossiemouth.
So with Linton for the chop in or around 2017/18, and the Hawk T1 dying at the same time (and quite possibly 100 Sqn with it), that means aircraft jobs will stop as far north as Scampton and not restart until Lossiemouth.
Linton's a base close to my heart, and it strikes me that all the basing review stuff I've ever read pays a lot of attention to circuit congestion, operating areas, access to the right training, ac parking and storage etc. But not a single but asks where people might want to work.
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So if you hail from north of Lincolnshire, where is there the RAF can now offer you for a chance to work?
A handful of QFIs at Linton, plus ops and ATC... all due to move to Valley in a few years. A tiny number of pilots on 100 Sqn and JFACTSU at Leeming, plus some FTRS UAS/AEF types... a few SAR guys at Boulmer about to be civilianised, leaving just the ABMs... more reservist pilots at Leuchars and Glasgow on UASs, and then a decent-sized base at Lossiemouth.
So with Linton for the chop in or around 2017/18, and the Hawk T1 dying at the same time (and quite possibly 100 Sqn with it), that means aircraft jobs will stop as far north as Scampton and not restart until Lossiemouth.
Linton's a base close to my heart, and it strikes me that all the basing review stuff I've ever read pays a lot of attention to circuit congestion, operating areas, access to the right training, ac parking and storage etc. But not a single but asks where people might want to work.
A handful of QFIs at Linton, plus ops and ATC... all due to move to Valley in a few years. A tiny number of pilots on 100 Sqn and JFACTSU at Leeming, plus some FTRS UAS/AEF types... a few SAR guys at Boulmer about to be civilianised, leaving just the ABMs... more reservist pilots at Leuchars and Glasgow on UASs, and then a decent-sized base at Lossiemouth.
So with Linton for the chop in or around 2017/18, and the Hawk T1 dying at the same time (and quite possibly 100 Sqn with it), that means aircraft jobs will stop as far north as Scampton and not restart until Lossiemouth.
Linton's a base close to my heart, and it strikes me that all the basing review stuff I've ever read pays a lot of attention to circuit congestion, operating areas, access to the right training, ac parking and storage etc. But not a single but asks where people might want to work.
If I want to work for BA, I'd better like living near Heathrow or Gatwick.
If I want to work for BAE, I'd better like living near Warton, Salmesbury etc.
If I want to be a fishhead, I'd better like the South Coast or Rosyth. If I want to be an FAA type, I've got the grand choice of VL or CU.
I highly doubt that the issue of where RAF airfields are located (not that Kinloss IS an RAF airfield anyway) is an issue of great concern from the perspective of where recruits come from.
And in any case, deletion of RAF positions from Kinloss makes no difference to your concern of a gap between Scampton and Lossiemouth, given the relative latitudes of Kinloss and Lossiemouth. Leuchars, possibly so, but even that is hardly likely to be a consideration when say a geordie is considering joining up. I doubt the 18 yr olds of Newcastle think "Well I was going to join the RAF, since Leuchars is only 200 miles away, but now they've closed it, I think I'll be a motor mechanic". And what happens when on completion of tour, you get posted to Akrotiri? Other than no rations, of course.
Last edited by Roadster280; 11th Dec 2014 at 16:27. Reason: Grammar
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Does that really matter?
Oh, I think it matters. As keen young thrusting pilots, we were all happy to go anywhere; but eventually, people feel they want to return home, or live somewhere of their choosing. Some people don't care, but plenty of my peers do.
I'm only mid-career, but I joined with 3 bustling bases in Scotland and I'm old enough to remember Turnhouse! Now, there's one base in Scotland and it's pretty remote and a lot smaller than it used to be (and I spent a fair chunk of my career there in GR4 days).
That means if I liked Scotland and I felt like settling there, I've got pretty much no option. We've gone from 3 MR2 squadrons, 4 GR4 ones and 3 F3 ones to just 2 (and a third) Typhoon ones, and 1.5 GR4 ones, one of which is on a stay of execution. Not many opportunities.
Within a tour, Leeming and Linton will cease to be an option too.
23 year old me would have flown Hawks anywhere, so didn't care that Valley was a 5 hour drive from family/girlfriend/etc. 33 year old me would have grumbled a bit but still done it. 36 year old me might decide he's sick of weekend commuting. 43 year old me isn't going to do it anymore.
I'm not bitter in the slightest; and before anyone comes along with the tired old "if you don't like it, leave" comments, I don't and I have! I still can't understand why no-one looked at the setup and realised that having your entire FJ capability crammed into Lincolnshire, Lossiemouth and Valley means that you may struggle to keep people in once they get to point they want to settle down. I have literally dozens of peers who've openly said they'd happily go to Linton or Leeming, but they'd PVR as soon as they were assigned to Valley. Many have put their money where their mouths are. I know loads of people who adored Leuchars, but hate Lossiemouth. I know plenty who enjoyed Kinloss, and don't like being at Waddington.
The point is there are so few options now, and if you don't like the idea of living in Lincolnshire or London there's simply nothing left for you. If you're a FJ pilot, especially a QFI, good luck avoiding Valley! Everyone of my vintage knows people who volunteered or fought for certain fleets because they were desperate to live near Kinloss/Lossie/Leuchars/St Mawgan/Odiham/etc.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I'm only mid-career, but I joined with 3 bustling bases in Scotland and I'm old enough to remember Turnhouse! Now, there's one base in Scotland and it's pretty remote and a lot smaller than it used to be (and I spent a fair chunk of my career there in GR4 days).
That means if I liked Scotland and I felt like settling there, I've got pretty much no option. We've gone from 3 MR2 squadrons, 4 GR4 ones and 3 F3 ones to just 2 (and a third) Typhoon ones, and 1.5 GR4 ones, one of which is on a stay of execution. Not many opportunities.
Within a tour, Leeming and Linton will cease to be an option too.
23 year old me would have flown Hawks anywhere, so didn't care that Valley was a 5 hour drive from family/girlfriend/etc. 33 year old me would have grumbled a bit but still done it. 36 year old me might decide he's sick of weekend commuting. 43 year old me isn't going to do it anymore.
I'm not bitter in the slightest; and before anyone comes along with the tired old "if you don't like it, leave" comments, I don't and I have! I still can't understand why no-one looked at the setup and realised that having your entire FJ capability crammed into Lincolnshire, Lossiemouth and Valley means that you may struggle to keep people in once they get to point they want to settle down. I have literally dozens of peers who've openly said they'd happily go to Linton or Leeming, but they'd PVR as soon as they were assigned to Valley. Many have put their money where their mouths are. I know loads of people who adored Leuchars, but hate Lossiemouth. I know plenty who enjoyed Kinloss, and don't like being at Waddington.
The point is there are so few options now, and if you don't like the idea of living in Lincolnshire or London there's simply nothing left for you. If you're a FJ pilot, especially a QFI, good luck avoiding Valley! Everyone of my vintage knows people who volunteered or fought for certain fleets because they were desperate to live near Kinloss/Lossie/Leuchars/St Mawgan/Odiham/etc.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Torque et al, it does matter to some; I had an interview with a guy on my team today who's now considering leaving because of this exact situation, where the chances of him working within even 300 miles of where he'd like to settle are slowly reducing to zero.
Valley is driving a surprisingly huge number of my peers to PVR. For a lot of people, it's simply not a desirable location when compared to the likes of Linton or Leuchars. I can count 6 PVRs from peers in the last 6 months tied with location.
Sure, plenty of people don't care where they are, and good luck to them. But the service needs to be aware that people want opportunities, variation and the chance to live where they want. Smaller air force means less opportunities. And when basing studies looking at BFJT moving to Valley seem to completely ignore the likely wishes and actions of virtually every single QFI at Linton, it seems a bit silly. Works for airspace, works for aircraft, works for training, works for budgets... but where are you going to get the people?
Valley is driving a surprisingly huge number of my peers to PVR. For a lot of people, it's simply not a desirable location when compared to the likes of Linton or Leuchars. I can count 6 PVRs from peers in the last 6 months tied with location.
Sure, plenty of people don't care where they are, and good luck to them. But the service needs to be aware that people want opportunities, variation and the chance to live where they want. Smaller air force means less opportunities. And when basing studies looking at BFJT moving to Valley seem to completely ignore the likely wishes and actions of virtually every single QFI at Linton, it seems a bit silly. Works for airspace, works for aircraft, works for training, works for budgets... but where are you going to get the people?
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How many posts will go at Kinloss, a dozen at most.
From a posting preferences viewpoint, closing the ARCC it isn't the end of the world.
(but you can see it from there)
I know...coat...door
From a posting preferences viewpoint, closing the ARCC it isn't the end of the world.
(but you can see it from there)
I know...coat...door
Trying (probably in vain) to get back to the subject of the thread....
More s*@t stirring, muck raking and political point scoring from Angus Robertson. This might be the first formal announcement, but the planned closure of the ARCC has been a known fact for at least a couple of years. It certainly isn't a post referendum "surprise", nor a great loss to the local economy. I'm sure that [we have the lowest military personnel numbers in Scotland in living memory.] is true, unfortunately that applies to England as well, but why let the truth get in the way of a good story?
Co-ordination by the military of a SAR force that was predominantly military was a historical hangover and made a certain amount of sense. With the privatisation of the SAR force imminent one would have to ask why the military would be continue to be responsible for tasking civilian assets which spend 99% of their time conducting tasks for civilian agencies, Police, Fire, NHS and Coastguard. This ceased to be logical, and the MOD had no appetite to continue doing it.
Responsibility for tasking will fall onto the coastguard in the NMOC.
TWH - I believe the ARCC is planned to close in late 2016.
More s*@t stirring, muck raking and political point scoring from Angus Robertson. This might be the first formal announcement, but the planned closure of the ARCC has been a known fact for at least a couple of years. It certainly isn't a post referendum "surprise", nor a great loss to the local economy. I'm sure that [we have the lowest military personnel numbers in Scotland in living memory.] is true, unfortunately that applies to England as well, but why let the truth get in the way of a good story?
Co-ordination by the military of a SAR force that was predominantly military was a historical hangover and made a certain amount of sense. With the privatisation of the SAR force imminent one would have to ask why the military would be continue to be responsible for tasking civilian assets which spend 99% of their time conducting tasks for civilian agencies, Police, Fire, NHS and Coastguard. This ceased to be logical, and the MOD had no appetite to continue doing it.
Responsibility for tasking will fall onto the coastguard in the NMOC.
TWH - I believe the ARCC is planned to close in late 2016.
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Slow typing, and apologies to Biggus ...
Join the RAF and see the World ... possibly. Depends on your career path, I guess, but certainly living near home was never part of my thinking. "RAF Richmond"??
So off to the joys of Lincolnshire (x2), Norfolk (x2), Singapore (x1) ... and an endless list of Uxbridge, West Drayton, MoD and Bentley Priory. If I'd known what life had in store, I would have bought a bicycle and lived at home
Not that I'm complaining. My parents had long since retired to the Old Folks parts of Devon, and I had some very interesting jobs and lived in nice-ish places thanks to the OH, who usually got the MQ wherever she was (Ickenham, Brampton, Northolt, Bracknell).
You join a Service that sends you anywhere it needs you. Simples. The days of Local Service Airwomen expired in the 70s.
Join the RAF and see the World ... possibly. Depends on your career path, I guess, but certainly living near home was never part of my thinking. "RAF Richmond"??
So off to the joys of Lincolnshire (x2), Norfolk (x2), Singapore (x1) ... and an endless list of Uxbridge, West Drayton, MoD and Bentley Priory. If I'd known what life had in store, I would have bought a bicycle and lived at home
Not that I'm complaining. My parents had long since retired to the Old Folks parts of Devon, and I had some very interesting jobs and lived in nice-ish places thanks to the OH, who usually got the MQ wherever she was (Ickenham, Brampton, Northolt, Bracknell).
You join a Service that sends you anywhere it needs you. Simples. The days of Local Service Airwomen expired in the 70s.
Biggus, apologies, back on topic.
I was always told through my career that the primary role of SAR is to rescue military pilots, and picking up hillwalkers or injured people or any civilians was a secondary task.
Is the role split of future, civilianised SAR explained anywhere? Will future FJ guys still have "priority," so to speak?
I was always told through my career that the primary role of SAR is to rescue military pilots, and picking up hillwalkers or injured people or any civilians was a secondary task.
Is the role split of future, civilianised SAR explained anywhere? Will future FJ guys still have "priority," so to speak?
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IIRC, SAR and RCCs were for recovering the ejected crew from the innumerable early jets that tended to expire or run out of fuel, in the days when the RAF could darken the sky with their numbers.
Same shift has happened with the demise of MEDAs ... for those who remember them
Same shift has happened with the demise of MEDAs ... for those who remember them
The primary role of SAR is to save lives, civilian or military is irrelevant.
There are currently 12 assets (11 overnight) to provide coverage for 65M people. That's 1 helo for every 5M ish, which is pretty thin coverage at times, especially if ageing aircraft produce poor serviceability or bad weather precludes flying.
Each task is judged on it's individual merits by a human being before any asset is committed. That said there are currently specific rules on how to react to a "Mayday" from an aircraft, which are almost automatic and pretty much puts you at the top of the pile.
Whether this approach will be adopted by the Coastguard when they take over I couldn't say, I'm not that close to this particular coal face.
There are currently 12 assets (11 overnight) to provide coverage for 65M people. That's 1 helo for every 5M ish, which is pretty thin coverage at times, especially if ageing aircraft produce poor serviceability or bad weather precludes flying.
Each task is judged on it's individual merits by a human being before any asset is committed. That said there are currently specific rules on how to react to a "Mayday" from an aircraft, which are almost automatic and pretty much puts you at the top of the pile.
Whether this approach will be adopted by the Coastguard when they take over I couldn't say, I'm not that close to this particular coal face.
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The primary role of SAR is to save lives, civilian or military is irrelevant.
There are currently 12 assets (11 overnight) to provide coverage for 65M people. That's 1 helo for every 5M ish, which is pretty thin coverage at times, especially if ageing aircraft produce poor serviceability or bad weather precludes flying.
There are currently 12 assets (11 overnight) to provide coverage for 65M people. That's 1 helo for every 5M ish, which is pretty thin coverage at times, especially if ageing aircraft produce poor serviceability or bad weather precludes flying.
There are also other assets that help too. The RAF SH force maintain a national standby, and I believe the C130 guys do too. Some jobs don't need a yellow budgie, but do need to get say from Hospital A to Hospital B very quickly, and sometimes a Sikorsky isn't the way to do that most effectively. Or perhaps doesn't have the room for the requisite medical team. Wokkas have a lot more room.
Getting hold of the SH standby asset or a C130 is never as easy as people on those fleets seem to believe, and in all these cases time is of the essence or the SAR fleet wouldn't be involved in the first place. The standby Chinook isn't much good for a job in Yorkshire either. Yes, there is more room inside a Chinook, but space normally isn't a limiting factor for a Sea King doing a medical transfer, indeed they are routinely done from the IOW in an AW139!! If a yellow helo isn't the best asset there are civilian air ambulances available as alternatives which are often easier to get hold of than other MOD assets.
As for the stats game, play it whichever way you want. 12 assets for 65M people is one way of looking at it, 5.5M to 1. However, given that 4 of those assets are in Scotland, you could say there are 8 assets to 60M for England and Wales, 7.5M to 1, or, if you take out the asset in Wales, 7 assets for 57M in England, 8M to 1, or, during the quiet hours, 6 assets for 57M, or 9.5M to 1!
As for 64M not needing SAR or rescue at any one time, I would suggest RTCs, vulnerable misper, etc are a nationwide phenomenon and more than 1M people are at potential risk at any one time, as the map of actual incidents throughout the UK during any particular year will show.
Yes, there are hotspots, mountains, coastlines (especially in summer), etc, but the overall spread of incidents is truly national.
As for the stats game, play it whichever way you want. 12 assets for 65M people is one way of looking at it, 5.5M to 1. However, given that 4 of those assets are in Scotland, you could say there are 8 assets to 60M for England and Wales, 7.5M to 1, or, if you take out the asset in Wales, 7 assets for 57M in England, 8M to 1, or, during the quiet hours, 6 assets for 57M, or 9.5M to 1!
As for 64M not needing SAR or rescue at any one time, I would suggest RTCs, vulnerable misper, etc are a nationwide phenomenon and more than 1M people are at potential risk at any one time, as the map of actual incidents throughout the UK during any particular year will show.
Yes, there are hotspots, mountains, coastlines (especially in summer), etc, but the overall spread of incidents is truly national.
As I recall from having been a stude there longer ago than I care to confess, and a scribbly staff officer at Brampton, Valley has two big drawbacks - it take ages to get anywhere when off duty, and the kids have to learn Welsh. Only posting I know where kids have to learn the local (foreign) language. This causes severe disruption to their (public sector) education. On both grounds I argued at HQRAFSC for Valley to be treated as a special case overseas posting. Not surprisingly, I "lost", but I did try
