Doing the right thing?
KenV:-
Unless you have a very weird legal code, I think that you will find that the perpetrators of any "torture" that happened in these "secret locations" are indeed in a "criminal prosecution scenario." Whether they be Service personnel, Civilian contractors, or local enthusiastic participants of such past times, they are all subject to law, be it Military or Civilian. Whether such law is ever enforced is of course another matter, hence the hypocrisy upon which BB and I concur.
That's exactly why they were at secret locations OUTside of US legal jurisdiction.
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Chug, You do not get to just point fingers.
Tell us what you would do with those you hold who are known Terrorists and who are a bonafide threat to citizens of your country and others?
You are not going to file criminal charges for any number of reasons and you cannot release them as you know they shall find their way back into action.
So what do YOU do, Chug.
Tell us. No abstraction arguments....lay out Chug's Plan to protect his Society from Terrorists.
Tell us what you would do with those you hold who are known Terrorists and who are a bonafide threat to citizens of your country and others?
You are not going to file criminal charges for any number of reasons and you cannot release them as you know they shall find their way back into action.
So what do YOU do, Chug.
Tell us. No abstraction arguments....lay out Chug's Plan to protect his Society from Terrorists.
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AI R,
I find nothing to disagree with mate.
Bob,
You seem to be working from an assumption that people's criticism of the CIA's behavior in this regard, is in some way a criticism of the US - it's not. Quite the opposite in fact. It's because of America's unique history and the efforts it's gone to in the past to 'do the right thing' (see what I did there?) that the world expects so much of it (although no more than is required by law).
Britain invented concentration camps (no need to say thanks) we're no more morally 'pure' than any other country. The points made on this thread, detailing why torture is a poor choice, are agnostic of the perpetrator.
Sun.
I find nothing to disagree with mate.
Bob,
You seem to be working from an assumption that people's criticism of the CIA's behavior in this regard, is in some way a criticism of the US - it's not. Quite the opposite in fact. It's because of America's unique history and the efforts it's gone to in the past to 'do the right thing' (see what I did there?) that the world expects so much of it (although no more than is required by law).
Britain invented concentration camps (no need to say thanks) we're no more morally 'pure' than any other country. The points made on this thread, detailing why torture is a poor choice, are agnostic of the perpetrator.
Sun.
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We got this Guy....what do we do with him?
He got waterboarded and given full benefit of EIT.
How do you prosecute him "Criminally" and how long do you hold him without a Trial....or do you turn him loose?
Can we argue the World is better off with him being a long term Resident of Gitmo?
These issues are not easy to address as there are no easy answers and pretending there is just does not countenance reality.
Lofty arguments about "Morality" are fine in the Classroom or over a Pint in the Pub but when it comes to dealing with Evil for real then it gets much more complex.
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed - The Guantánamo Docket
Sun,
A few have very much made it an "American" thing and my argument is every Nation has some skin in this game in their past.
The UK was confronted with this in the past when dealing with the IRA and other Terrorist groups.
The Clinton and Obama Administrations have tried to treat it as a Criminal Matter and the Bush Administration tried to approach it from a "War" perspective.
Which is the better way is in itself a real argument that is being thrashed around as well.
An example, we have approximately forty Terrorists convicted of Federal Crimes who are living out Life Sentences in the Colorado Super Max Prison and we have others who have not been prosecuted in a Criminal Court who are being held in Guantanamo Bay with Indefinite Status.
The End Result is pretty much the same. The Bad Guys are not going anywhere soon and most will never go any where but to the Prison Cemetery.
He got waterboarded and given full benefit of EIT.
How do you prosecute him "Criminally" and how long do you hold him without a Trial....or do you turn him loose?
Can we argue the World is better off with him being a long term Resident of Gitmo?
These issues are not easy to address as there are no easy answers and pretending there is just does not countenance reality.
Lofty arguments about "Morality" are fine in the Classroom or over a Pint in the Pub but when it comes to dealing with Evil for real then it gets much more complex.
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed - The Guantánamo Docket
Sun,
A few have very much made it an "American" thing and my argument is every Nation has some skin in this game in their past.
The UK was confronted with this in the past when dealing with the IRA and other Terrorist groups.
The Clinton and Obama Administrations have tried to treat it as a Criminal Matter and the Bush Administration tried to approach it from a "War" perspective.
Which is the better way is in itself a real argument that is being thrashed around as well.
An example, we have approximately forty Terrorists convicted of Federal Crimes who are living out Life Sentences in the Colorado Super Max Prison and we have others who have not been prosecuted in a Criminal Court who are being held in Guantanamo Bay with Indefinite Status.
The End Result is pretty much the same. The Bad Guys are not going anywhere soon and most will never go any where but to the Prison Cemetery.
Last edited by Boudreaux Bob; 15th Dec 2014 at 16:49.
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It's exceedingly rare, that any CPers holds information that is of immediate tactical advantage - despite what you may have seen at the movies. Obtaining reliable information from CPers can be done, legally, but it takes time. That might be an uncomfortable scenario, but it's unavoidable. I have sympathy with those who are tempted to use illegal methods in those (very) rare instances where time is of the essence, but any intel they obtain as a consequence of such methods will likely be unreliable, and will almost certainly have a negative impact on the strategic intent.
I'm aware I'm repeating myself now, so will politely bow out until and unless the conversation progresses.
Sun.
I'm aware I'm repeating myself now, so will politely bow out until and unless the conversation progresses.
Sun.
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Oh Bob, I've got to step back in on this one. If you knew anything about Khalid Mohammed you wouldn't have picked that example. look him up on Google and pay particular attention to the prosecution options, quality of intel obtained and the review's observations on how it could have been done better. Fantastic own goal.
Sun.
Sun.
Britain invented concentration camps
I doubt that Britain actually invented the concept but it would appear to me to be more humane than just killing the farmers who were supplying enemy fighters.
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Now why would that be Sun?
Basil,
Rumor has it that the Camps during the Boer War were not exactly Pleasure Palaces.
The Boers were winning by their use of Guerrilla Warfare and the British Army resorted to a campaign of Scorched Earth by burning farms and villages and relocating the population to Concentration Camps. All of this being fought over Gold finds in land given to the Boers and a fear they would become wealthy and show allegiance to the Germans.
Basil,
Rumor has it that the Camps during the Boer War were not exactly Pleasure Palaces.
The Boers were winning by their use of Guerrilla Warfare and the British Army resorted to a campaign of Scorched Earth by burning farms and villages and relocating the population to Concentration Camps. All of this being fought over Gold finds in land given to the Boers and a fear they would become wealthy and show allegiance to the Germans.
The British Army created the concentration camps as part of a campaign against Boer guerrillas fighting against the takeover of their independent republic. Civilians were herded into the camps from their farms, but the insanitary conditions cost many their lives as hunger and disease ran rampant. Between June 1901 and May 1902, of the 115,000 people in the camps, almost 28,000 died, about 22,000 of them children. The death toll represented about 10 per cent of the Boer population. About 20,000 black people also died in other camps.
BB, guess what? There is no sure way for Chug "to protect his Society from Terrorists". You just do your best, mainly with intelligence, by infiltrating, by using brains rather than brawn. I doubt very much if any plan involving extraordinary rendition (a glorious word with pseudo legal implications, when it is only really good old fashioned kidnapping) would have much facility. You do what you do with all bad people; investigate, arrest, and prosecute them. If they confess and plead guilty easy peasy, if not then do your work assiduously lest they slip the net.
As to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, I understood that he had confessed, so what's the problem? Oh, he only confessed under torture? Ah...
As to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, I understood that he had confessed, so what's the problem? Oh, he only confessed under torture? Ah...
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Basil,
Yes, I am, of course, aware of the distinction between concentration camps and 'death camps'.
See here for a reasonably informative article on Britain's invention of the former. There are thousands of other easily available references, both on the web and at your local library - there is little challenge to the idea that Britain invented concentration camps.
Britain's behavior during the Boer war was not our finest hour although, in a pre-global comms, pre-internet era, where it was possible to control the message to a large extent, those tactics could be said to have achieved the strategic aim. Those tactics would not work today.
Sun.
Yes, I am, of course, aware of the distinction between concentration camps and 'death camps'.
See here for a reasonably informative article on Britain's invention of the former. There are thousands of other easily available references, both on the web and at your local library - there is little challenge to the idea that Britain invented concentration camps.
Britain's behavior during the Boer war was not our finest hour although, in a pre-global comms, pre-internet era, where it was possible to control the message to a large extent, those tactics could be said to have achieved the strategic aim. Those tactics would not work today.
Sun.
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Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, I understood that he had confessed, so what's the problem? Oh, he only confessed under torture? Ah...
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Unless you have a very weird legal code, I think that you will find that the perpetrators of any "torture" that happened in these "secret locations" are indeed in a "criminal prosecution scenario."
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One of my points is simply the Criminal Prosecution suffers from the use of EIT's which are followed by "Confessions". You still hold the Prisoner but any Criminal Prosecution becomes very risky. If he is found Not Guilty or the Charges are Dismissed....you are compelled to turn him loose.
If you do not pursue Criminal charges just what do you do with the Prisoner after he "Confesses"?
If you do not pursue Criminal charges just what do you do with the Prisoner after he "Confesses"?
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There appears to be a lot of confusion here. Any "confession" is totally irrelevant. The enhanced interogation had NOTHING to do with wringing confessions from these guys, but obtaining information from them. These guys will almost surely never be brought within US legal jurisdiction and tried. Never.
Oh there's lots of confusion all right, KenV. Could you please answer BB's question, what do you do with a Guantanamo/wherever inmate after you've drained him of information, confessions, or none of the above? What do you do with him? You tell us that:-
So what are you going to do with them?
As to the "perpetrators":-
Well obviously not the US legal system, for what it's worth. Has it ever occurred though that what is good for the Goose is good for the Gander? If rendition to foreign climes is OK for those suspected of outrages against the US, is it not also OK for those who were complicit in the torture of those suspects? There are UK Nationals held at Guantanamo without trial, for years now. What are you going to do with them? The US has lost dearly in its declared War on Terror. The UK has lost dearly in being complicit in it, but is now counting the cost and reviewing its position:-
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thoms...idnapping/8709
Not a moment too soon in my view.
These guys will almost surely never be brought within US legal jurisdiction and tried. Never.
As to the "perpetrators":-
Who's going to enforce the local laws and/or international laws that apply here?
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thoms...idnapping/8709
Not a moment too soon in my view.
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As usual a political tit for tack, with meaningless back and forth.
Torture doesn't work, in effect a meaningless statement in the modern world. Every one knows that. Thats why enhanced interrogation techniques is used in conjunction with other methods.
Did they even get tortured? who here has seen a technical description of each incident? Who here can then go though each incident with the various legal codes? Or are you saying that you just like Bin laden etc wants us to just act on moral codes, as long as there your moral codes.
As for legal action, that depends on each countries legal codes and the peoples involved counties legal code. As such, who's law do you follow and be responsible for, the country you are in, or the country you are from? A very stick problem if you are forced to follow your own countries laws in another land.
Torture doesn't work, in effect a meaningless statement in the modern world. Every one knows that. Thats why enhanced interrogation techniques is used in conjunction with other methods.
Did they even get tortured? who here has seen a technical description of each incident? Who here can then go though each incident with the various legal codes? Or are you saying that you just like Bin laden etc wants us to just act on moral codes, as long as there your moral codes.
As for legal action, that depends on each countries legal codes and the peoples involved counties legal code. As such, who's law do you follow and be responsible for, the country you are in, or the country you are from? A very stick problem if you are forced to follow your own countries laws in another land.
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Dear god, my post actually caused all this nonsense. May I summarise, and then have the thread confined to a dark hole somewhere? Gitmo perhaps?
Americans think Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (aka torture) are fine as long as they're the perpetrator not the victim. If they're the victim they constitute inhumane torture and will go off into a lengthy rant about the Vietnamese, the Japanese and any other army which gave them a hard time.
The Brits think the whole thing is awful, conveniently ignoring the fact that they were a) observers b) advisers c) facilitators and d) probably participants (which will, of course, have been redacted).
The Aussies are fretting over a shootout in Sydney and are a mite preoccupied at the moment.
The remainder of the civilised world are rolling their eyes going, 'WTF are these guys on?'.
End of thread.
Americans think Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (aka torture) are fine as long as they're the perpetrator not the victim. If they're the victim they constitute inhumane torture and will go off into a lengthy rant about the Vietnamese, the Japanese and any other army which gave them a hard time.
The Brits think the whole thing is awful, conveniently ignoring the fact that they were a) observers b) advisers c) facilitators and d) probably participants (which will, of course, have been redacted).
The Aussies are fretting over a shootout in Sydney and are a mite preoccupied at the moment.
The remainder of the civilised world are rolling their eyes going, 'WTF are these guys on?'.
End of thread.
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Chugs,
I posed that question to you. What is your answer?
What becomes of the UK Citizens at Gitmo (assuming that is true statement)?
Why has the UK not asked to have them back?
I posed that question to you. What is your answer?
What becomes of the UK Citizens at Gitmo (assuming that is true statement)?
Why has the UK not asked to have them back?
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The Brits think the whole thing is awful, conveniently ignoring the fact that they were a) observers b) advisers c) facilitators and d) probably participants (which will, of course, have been redacted).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30467471
If guilty, one hopes any of our politicians etc would be brought to account, they are servants of the law, not above it.
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Nutty,
One thing Politicians say is they shall walk a straight line on such issues but we know the Truth is those currently in power don't want to actually do anything to the last bunch to sit in their Chairs as what goes around comes around.
You notice Mr. Obama is staying well away from any prosecution of perceived wrong doing in this CIA EIT Program (and anything else that has cropped up in his own Administration).
Just as strained as the EIT Legal Finding was for the DOJ, so is the current DOJ Legal Finding that allowed the killing of US Citizens by Drone Strikes without any legal attention to Judicial proceedings and our Constitutional Right to Due Process.
You can bet Mr. Obama is never going to allow any prosecution of Bush Administration Officials because he damn sure does not want that same precedent applied to Him and His.
One thing Politicians say is they shall walk a straight line on such issues but we know the Truth is those currently in power don't want to actually do anything to the last bunch to sit in their Chairs as what goes around comes around.
You notice Mr. Obama is staying well away from any prosecution of perceived wrong doing in this CIA EIT Program (and anything else that has cropped up in his own Administration).
Just as strained as the EIT Legal Finding was for the DOJ, so is the current DOJ Legal Finding that allowed the killing of US Citizens by Drone Strikes without any legal attention to Judicial proceedings and our Constitutional Right to Due Process.
You can bet Mr. Obama is never going to allow any prosecution of Bush Administration Officials because he damn sure does not want that same precedent applied to Him and His.