Doing the right thing?
I know of one instance where an RAF aircraft captain was presented with a contentious passenger to be taken somewhere that the passenger would not have enjoyed. He sought advice from his deployed commander who suspended the trip whilst advice was sought from the UK.
The UK chain of command cancelled the sortie and, without hesitation, backed the actions of the aircraft captain and the detco.
The 'passenger' was moved by a different nation before being handed to another nation. The UK played no role in this affair.
Decisions are never easy, but we all have the ability to make them.
The UK chain of command cancelled the sortie and, without hesitation, backed the actions of the aircraft captain and the detco.
The 'passenger' was moved by a different nation before being handed to another nation. The UK played no role in this affair.
Decisions are never easy, but we all have the ability to make them.
One could make a case that simply detaining and interrogating a suspected terrorist is torture given the open ended definition. Surely even detaining one causes some degree of mental duress.
I'll simply have to continue my quest to properly define what it was they went through.
I'll simply have to continue my quest to properly define what it was they went through.
sun who, your attempt at redefinition of the phrase "doesn't work" when one of the gents who is in the business reported in his rebuttal, yesterday, that they got actionable intelligence, tells me that you don't understand how to use the language, or that you are being willfully dishonest.
If, based on your further explanation, the point that you are attempting to make is the you don't believe that the outcome is worth the cost -- in hindsight -- that's certainly a point worth considering. The decision makers at the time either thought it was, or really didn't grasp the cost in image and perception that they risked in making that short term decision.
It is a non trivial point to consider, when one looks at various actions taken in the political context.
So, it may have worked (gleaned useful information) in some cases, may have been utterly useless in other cases, and may have led to bad intel ("tell them anything to make it stop") in other cases.
At the time, being in a reactive mode, it appears that the leadership decided that any little bit gleaned was worth nearly any cost. If you have issue with that judgment from a variety of political camps, a variety of people in this country are on side with you.
If, based on your further explanation, the point that you are attempting to make is the you don't believe that the outcome is worth the cost -- in hindsight -- that's certainly a point worth considering. The decision makers at the time either thought it was, or really didn't grasp the cost in image and perception that they risked in making that short term decision.
It is a non trivial point to consider, when one looks at various actions taken in the political context.
So, it may have worked (gleaned useful information) in some cases, may have been utterly useless in other cases, and may have led to bad intel ("tell them anything to make it stop") in other cases.
At the time, being in a reactive mode, it appears that the leadership decided that any little bit gleaned was worth nearly any cost. If you have issue with that judgment from a variety of political camps, a variety of people in this country are on side with you.
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Sun Who,
It is wrong to suggest torture doesn't work. It would be better to suggest it doesn't always work. As an aside, you imply (apols if I got that wrong) insight about the 'rarity' of solid int - can you quantify that?
It is wrong to suggest torture doesn't work. It would be better to suggest it doesn't always work. As an aside, you imply (apols if I got that wrong) insight about the 'rarity' of solid int - can you quantify that?
Torture doesn't work because, even if it gets actionable intelligence (rare) any gains are more than offset by the negative aspects outlined in my previous post. This is the reason torture is not a tool of the thinking man.
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Lonewolf 50, AI R,
Before I add anything, I'll make a brief observation; I think this thread is a good example of the best of the PPRuNE, with people disagreeing/debating in an adult fashion.
So,
I could, you'll appreciate that I won't - I realise that may lay me open to accusations of making unsubstantiated assertions.
You both make a fair point that my definition of 'what works' is insufficient, so I guess I need to do better. When I assert that 'torture doesn't work' what I mean is that it doesn't support the overall strategic aim (very well, if at all). It's not that the negative factors aren't worth it (on balance) it's that the negative factors (as per my post 1) do more harm (to the overall strategic aim, not 'the mission') than the intel does good, thereby making the choice of torture a bad one on a functional basis
I also think torture is morally bankrupt BUT I accept entirely that's a position based on a particular ethical perspective (let's not get into the difference between morals and ethics) and as such, a weaker position.
Sun.
Before I add anything, I'll make a brief observation; I think this thread is a good example of the best of the PPRuNE, with people disagreeing/debating in an adult fashion.
So,
As an aside, you imply (apols if I got that wrong) insight about the 'rarity' of solid int - can you quantify that?
You both make a fair point that my definition of 'what works' is insufficient, so I guess I need to do better. When I assert that 'torture doesn't work' what I mean is that it doesn't support the overall strategic aim (very well, if at all). It's not that the negative factors aren't worth it (on balance) it's that the negative factors (as per my post 1) do more harm (to the overall strategic aim, not 'the mission') than the intel does good, thereby making the choice of torture a bad one on a functional basis
I also think torture is morally bankrupt BUT I accept entirely that's a position based on a particular ethical perspective (let's not get into the difference between morals and ethics) and as such, a weaker position.
Sun.
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Al R, did you read any of the senate report? I appreciate it has now become a political ping-pong ball but the evidence was that little if any intelligence of value was obtained by torture, much of what was, turned out to be nonsense and at least one cooperative suspect giving valuable intel ceased doing so when water boarded.
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Shot one,
I didn't read the 560 pages as quickly as you did, clearly! What amazed me though, was the $81m paid over 8 years to the two USAF SERE pusser's shrinks who must have thought Christmas had come early. I make no other comment on its content, the direction or the acuity of its political weather vane. I did hear someone far better informed than both of us refer to it as bullsh*t last night though!
Herod,
Yes, torture is completely wrong.
I didn't read the 560 pages as quickly as you did, clearly! What amazed me though, was the $81m paid over 8 years to the two USAF SERE pusser's shrinks who must have thought Christmas had come early. I make no other comment on its content, the direction or the acuity of its political weather vane. I did hear someone far better informed than both of us refer to it as bullsh*t last night though!
Herod,
Yes, torture is completely wrong.
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Indeed.. but what is impartial? It varies with time and who sits in the Oval Office. I would trust a report generated by the CIA or the White House as much or as little as I'd trust any report generated by any body, it has the whiff of being written by someone with a highly tubed political antenna and the self flagellation fairly screams sometimes. Let's face it, it's an exercise in.. what, I wonder?
I didn't read it all either..
I didn't read it all either..
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We in the West are supposed to be upholding the values of civilisation, moral and ethical. Torture is WRONG. End of story.
Life isn't cut and dried, sticking to dogma makes us just as much extremists by definition.
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For those of you who go on about the future risk to American (or other Aircrew) as a result of this Report and the CIA EIT Program itself, perhaps you forgot about the treatment our Aircrew received during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War I when captured by the enemy.
They were tortured, killed, and in some cases eaten by the Bad Guys.
I would suggest you read your History before you go running your ratchet jaws.
WWII....President George H.W. Bush was shot down and rescued close to this location.
During Vietnam....
Gulf War I.....
They were tortured, killed, and in some cases eaten by the Bad Guys.
I would suggest you read your History before you go running your ratchet jaws.
WWII....President George H.W. Bush was shot down and rescued close to this location.
Perhaps the most senior officer convicted of cannibalism was Lt Gen. Yoshio Tachibana, who with 11 other Japanese personnel was tried in relation to the execution of U.S. Navy airmen, and the cannibalism of at least one of them, in August 1944, on Chichi Jima, in the Bonin Islands. They were beheaded on Tachibana's orders. As military and international law did not specifically deal with cannibalism, they were tried for murder and "prevention of honorable burial". Tachibana was sentenced to death.
The Cruelest Period
One notable escape attempt in May 1969 had horrific consequences for POWs. Air Force captains John Dramesi and Edwin Atterberry planned an elaborate escape from the "Zoo Annex." Despite their planning, they made it only a few miles. They had made clothing and props to blend in with the native population, and the prison authorities were furious that the Americans had been able to plan such a complex operation. North Vietnamese retaliation on POWs through the summer of 1969 was the most brutal and sustained episode of criminal inhumanity during the Southeast Asia War.
For two weeks, POWs on the "escape committee" who had helped Dramesi and Atterberry were tortured for details. Then, others who knew nothing of the plan were tortured as well. Already meager rations were further reduced, exercise banned, and many prisoners were savagely beaten over the coming months. One POW was hung upside down from the ceiling and shocked with a car battery. Teams of torturers wielding rubber fan belts took turns flaying the bare skin off POWs' bodies. Others were clubbed and forced to kneel for hours without sleep between whippings. Over a 2-week period, Navy Lt. Cmdr. Red McDaniel received more than 700 lashes. He suffered many open wounds, endured electric shocks, was bound in ropes and irons, and was hung upside down with a compound arm fracture--which guards manipulated while questioning continued. Many others suffered similarly as the orgy of retaliation spread among the camps.
For their escape attempt, the North Vietnamese murdered Atterberry by beating him to death, and they flogged Dramesi with fan belts for 38 straight days. They allowed him no sleep during that period (he was forced to sit on a small stool the whole time), they beat him savagely, and alternately tied him in tight ropes or restrained him in irons as he was forced to write and tape apologies. He had only two small pieces of bread and two cups of water each day, and lived in his own filth. Incredibly, he survived--but he was compelled to listen to Atterberry's screams.
One notable escape attempt in May 1969 had horrific consequences for POWs. Air Force captains John Dramesi and Edwin Atterberry planned an elaborate escape from the "Zoo Annex." Despite their planning, they made it only a few miles. They had made clothing and props to blend in with the native population, and the prison authorities were furious that the Americans had been able to plan such a complex operation. North Vietnamese retaliation on POWs through the summer of 1969 was the most brutal and sustained episode of criminal inhumanity during the Southeast Asia War.
For two weeks, POWs on the "escape committee" who had helped Dramesi and Atterberry were tortured for details. Then, others who knew nothing of the plan were tortured as well. Already meager rations were further reduced, exercise banned, and many prisoners were savagely beaten over the coming months. One POW was hung upside down from the ceiling and shocked with a car battery. Teams of torturers wielding rubber fan belts took turns flaying the bare skin off POWs' bodies. Others were clubbed and forced to kneel for hours without sleep between whippings. Over a 2-week period, Navy Lt. Cmdr. Red McDaniel received more than 700 lashes. He suffered many open wounds, endured electric shocks, was bound in ropes and irons, and was hung upside down with a compound arm fracture--which guards manipulated while questioning continued. Many others suffered similarly as the orgy of retaliation spread among the camps.
For their escape attempt, the North Vietnamese murdered Atterberry by beating him to death, and they flogged Dramesi with fan belts for 38 straight days. They allowed him no sleep during that period (he was forced to sit on a small stool the whole time), they beat him savagely, and alternately tied him in tight ropes or restrained him in irons as he was forced to write and tape apologies. He had only two small pieces of bread and two cups of water each day, and lived in his own filth. Incredibly, he survived--but he was compelled to listen to Atterberry's screams.
WASHINGTON — All 23 American prisoners of war captured by Iraqi forces during Operation Desert Storm, including two U.S. servicewomen, were tortured or abused by their captors, a top Defense Department official told U.S. lawmakers Thursday.
In several instances, Iraqi interrogators broke bones, perforated eardrums and threatened to shoot or dismember the American prisoners in their custody, Army Col. Bill Jordan said in testimony before Congress' Human Rights Caucus.
In several instances, Iraqi interrogators broke bones, perforated eardrums and threatened to shoot or dismember the American prisoners in their custody, Army Col. Bill Jordan said in testimony before Congress' Human Rights Caucus.
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Boudreaux Bob, I'm not sure what your point is but if risk associated with the report is a topic you want to discuss, then it's worth reading it before commenting. It can be found here.
Sun.
Sun.
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Sun,
Having been an Investigator I know for a fact that any inquiry that relies solely on a collection of documents and does not conduct one single Interview of People directly involved in the situation under scrutiny, just cannot be considered anything worth serious consideration.
Reading the Executive Summary of a compilation of several thousand pages of documents is not something I care to waste a minute's time doing.
Without Sworn Statements or Formal Results of Interview Documents resulting from Interviews of Individuals that are named in, or who created those Documents, who participated in Decisions, formulated Legal Opinions, and had first hand knowledge of events, the Report is fatally flawed.
To think the investigation cost Fifty Million Dollars is beyond belief.....to collect paper? That should be investigated itself for potential Fraud, Waste, and Abuse violations of Federal Law.
If you think the EIT Program is so evil....then how about the use of Armed Drones to attack Targets and causing the deaths of innocent people? Obama has authorized such strikes that have killed American Citizens without any Due Process considerations as required by our Constitution.
If "Torturing" people is evil then what is killing them sans Trial?
Having been an Investigator I know for a fact that any inquiry that relies solely on a collection of documents and does not conduct one single Interview of People directly involved in the situation under scrutiny, just cannot be considered anything worth serious consideration.
Reading the Executive Summary of a compilation of several thousand pages of documents is not something I care to waste a minute's time doing.
Without Sworn Statements or Formal Results of Interview Documents resulting from Interviews of Individuals that are named in, or who created those Documents, who participated in Decisions, formulated Legal Opinions, and had first hand knowledge of events, the Report is fatally flawed.
To think the investigation cost Fifty Million Dollars is beyond belief.....to collect paper? That should be investigated itself for potential Fraud, Waste, and Abuse violations of Federal Law.
If you think the EIT Program is so evil....then how about the use of Armed Drones to attack Targets and causing the deaths of innocent people? Obama has authorized such strikes that have killed American Citizens without any Due Process considerations as required by our Constitution.
If "Torturing" people is evil then what is killing them sans Trial?
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Bob, you've listed some very unpleasant instances of torture. None of them conferred a military advantage and all left a stain on the perpetrating nation which remained long after the conflict. What point were you trying to make?
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It's worth noting that the review didn't conduct interviews because the CIA chose not to allow its staff to cooperate, even under controlled, private sessions, because those staff were 'under jeopardy'. Having said that, it seems reasonable to assume the majority of the documents would be an accurate record. If that's not the case, it begs further questions about the CIA's conduct.
I'm still not sure I understand your point Bob and neither am I sure that the introduction of UAS strikes as an ethical comparator is helpful. However, in case it helps situate my viewpoint:
I have no issues with the application of force via unmanned aircraft. I've seen at first hand, up close and personal, the procedures used by both US and allied aircrews to ensure the chances of collateral damage are minimised, and they are extremely rigorous and well within the laws of armed conflict. I do not believe the same can be said for the CIA's use of torture, which appears to have been amateurish at best, and bordering on mis-placed revenge at worst.
Sun
I'm still not sure I understand your point Bob and neither am I sure that the introduction of UAS strikes as an ethical comparator is helpful. However, in case it helps situate my viewpoint:
I have no issues with the application of force via unmanned aircraft. I've seen at first hand, up close and personal, the procedures used by both US and allied aircrews to ensure the chances of collateral damage are minimised, and they are extremely rigorous and well within the laws of armed conflict. I do not believe the same can be said for the CIA's use of torture, which appears to have been amateurish at best, and bordering on mis-placed revenge at worst.
Sun
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Plainly the Jury has its mind made up using far less than half the evidence.
No need to discuss it further.
Did the Report contain the DOJ Investigative Reports that resulted in there being no Criminal Actions undertaken against any CIA personnel and there being a Declaration by the President there would be none in the future?
How much harm did the North Vietnamese suffer due to the disclosure of their Torture and Murder? Remember the fate of the Defenders of Dien Bien Phu?
What actions did the British take in wake of that?
So why all this recent consternation over the CIA Report?
Are you as upset over the Human Rights record of say...Iran, China, North Korea?
Do you think any Air Crew or SpecOps troopers that get taken by ISIS are going to be given Tea and Sticky Buns?
Perhaps this is just a rough old World we live in and has been forever.
When we compare the treatment of Danny Pearl by KSM....and the subsequent treatment of KSM by the CIA, somehow I think KSM is the fortunate one.
One hacked off another's Head to perpetrate a Terror act and the the others handled him very roughly to counter a Terrorist Organization that has murdered Thousands of People.
Sorry, but the whole reaction to the Report, which is preposterous itself, just smacks of hypocrisy.
We at least should be honest with ourselves in this and ask just what is our motivation in having the position we do.
When you finally admit the Senate Investigation was poorly done, did not include all the facts, ignored logical and relevant avenues of investigation, and was put out by People who were directly involved in the Oversight of the Program and who had called for even more harsh methods....then perhaps you are worth listening to.
We had a discussion about the Drone Strikes and the Due Process requirements of American Law....and those who are so up in arms over this Report have no concerns about killing people by Drone Strikes despite in a couple of cases US Law protected a few of them. The outcry then was why should those few be protected because of their American Citizenship rather than showing any concern for the Law.
I fail to see how Murder is a lesser evil than Waterboarding where no one is killed.
If you want to argue morality then do so but be honest with yourself and others when you do. You cannot separate killing from torture no matter how you try.
You only fool yourself if you think that is possible.
This is a War we are in and there can be no doubt of that.
You were quite happy to Area Bomb whole cities during World War II but you get squeamish about a few hundred folks getting roughed up during interrogation?
Why are you not as outraged about the length of detention without Trial the Prisoners in Gitmo have endured? Is it the fact the UK has the same ability under your Terrorism Laws? Why no outrage at that?
Sorry....I just don't buy your arguments.
No need to discuss it further.
Did the Report contain the DOJ Investigative Reports that resulted in there being no Criminal Actions undertaken against any CIA personnel and there being a Declaration by the President there would be none in the future?
How much harm did the North Vietnamese suffer due to the disclosure of their Torture and Murder? Remember the fate of the Defenders of Dien Bien Phu?
What actions did the British take in wake of that?
So why all this recent consternation over the CIA Report?
Are you as upset over the Human Rights record of say...Iran, China, North Korea?
Do you think any Air Crew or SpecOps troopers that get taken by ISIS are going to be given Tea and Sticky Buns?
Perhaps this is just a rough old World we live in and has been forever.
When we compare the treatment of Danny Pearl by KSM....and the subsequent treatment of KSM by the CIA, somehow I think KSM is the fortunate one.
One hacked off another's Head to perpetrate a Terror act and the the others handled him very roughly to counter a Terrorist Organization that has murdered Thousands of People.
Sorry, but the whole reaction to the Report, which is preposterous itself, just smacks of hypocrisy.
We at least should be honest with ourselves in this and ask just what is our motivation in having the position we do.
When you finally admit the Senate Investigation was poorly done, did not include all the facts, ignored logical and relevant avenues of investigation, and was put out by People who were directly involved in the Oversight of the Program and who had called for even more harsh methods....then perhaps you are worth listening to.
We had a discussion about the Drone Strikes and the Due Process requirements of American Law....and those who are so up in arms over this Report have no concerns about killing people by Drone Strikes despite in a couple of cases US Law protected a few of them. The outcry then was why should those few be protected because of their American Citizenship rather than showing any concern for the Law.
I fail to see how Murder is a lesser evil than Waterboarding where no one is killed.
If you want to argue morality then do so but be honest with yourself and others when you do. You cannot separate killing from torture no matter how you try.
You only fool yourself if you think that is possible.
This is a War we are in and there can be no doubt of that.
You were quite happy to Area Bomb whole cities during World War II but you get squeamish about a few hundred folks getting roughed up during interrogation?
Why are you not as outraged about the length of detention without Trial the Prisoners in Gitmo have endured? Is it the fact the UK has the same ability under your Terrorism Laws? Why no outrage at that?
Sorry....I just don't buy your arguments.
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Some powerful points there, Bob.
Your examples of the horrific torture perpetrated in Vietnam outline perfectly the difference I was trying to show between psychological techniques used by the likes of the CIA and outright cruel violent torture used by others.
The world isn't black and white, there are shades of grey. "Torture is wrong, end of" is probably a phrase we can all agree with, but exactly what constitutes "torture" is not as black and white. My old Tp Sgt had worked in the Internment camps in N Ireland at the start of the Troubles. He said how they would encourage splits among the prisoners by for example, salting the food of one, but not the other, thus causing fights over the food. Compared with being whipped with a fan belt for 38 days, that is so mild as to be not even worth talking about. But it would cause a Guardianista a lot of hand-wringing.
I don't advocate excessive violence in the treatment of prisoners, but I don't think it realistic to expect that they simply be put in a cell and not interrogated. Interrogation isn't supposed to be a job interview. What is the "RE" part of "SERE" all about? And who runs the courses? And why do we have such people in the first place?
I come back to my position - it is not black and white.
Your examples of the horrific torture perpetrated in Vietnam outline perfectly the difference I was trying to show between psychological techniques used by the likes of the CIA and outright cruel violent torture used by others.
The world isn't black and white, there are shades of grey. "Torture is wrong, end of" is probably a phrase we can all agree with, but exactly what constitutes "torture" is not as black and white. My old Tp Sgt had worked in the Internment camps in N Ireland at the start of the Troubles. He said how they would encourage splits among the prisoners by for example, salting the food of one, but not the other, thus causing fights over the food. Compared with being whipped with a fan belt for 38 days, that is so mild as to be not even worth talking about. But it would cause a Guardianista a lot of hand-wringing.
I don't advocate excessive violence in the treatment of prisoners, but I don't think it realistic to expect that they simply be put in a cell and not interrogated. Interrogation isn't supposed to be a job interview. What is the "RE" part of "SERE" all about? And who runs the courses? And why do we have such people in the first place?
I come back to my position - it is not black and white.
How much harm did the North Vietnamese suffer due to the disclosure of their Torture and Murder? Remember the fate of the Defenders of Dien Bien Phu?
What actions did the British take in wake of that?
What actions did the British take in wake of that?
Typically, after several hours in 'disorientation rooms' [non-right-angled rooms, noise], the 'shock of capture' was exploited by offering hot baths, food, drink, cigarettes to the captured insurgents. The success rate in turning insurgents and TST couriers was quite remarkable. As usual, the interviewers exploited motivations - family, money, waivering ideological beliefs - as well as the lure of good food and drink. Women insurgents - often captured working as couriers - were regarded as particularly difficult to turn and it was found that if they were offered a decent hair do and manicure, they would be more amenable for working for the Government. There are a number of very good open-source studies on this aspect of the campaign.
I appreciate that all COIN and CT campaigns are different, but certainly during this particularly brutal campaign, torture was not used by the Government side.