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Russian aircraft impounded in Nigeria, French weapons on board

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Russian aircraft impounded in Nigeria, French weapons on board

Old 13th Dec 2014, 01:20
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Reinhardt
Thanks Courtney, nice recap - a lot of people are discussing whithout knowledge of events.

Then General Lord Gort, the commander of the British Expeditionary Force took the morally courageous decision to abandon his role in a projected Anglo-French counterattack, and fell back on the Channel ports... ...The French, not surprisingly, regarded this as a betrayal


In clear English, they ran away ( otherwise, they would have been surrendering like the others, like for exemple the Soviets one year later who had to drop their weapons, by hundred of thousands, after being surrounded in huge battles )

And the French Army had to protect the reimbarkment of British Forces at Dunkirk, without being able to take advantage of the escape route...


No wonder the Battle of Dunkirk is conveniently forgotten North of the Channel....
If we're (quite fairly) complaining about historical accuracy, then:

1. More than 100,000 French troops were evacuated from Dunkirk, just over 26,000 coming across on the final day of the evacuation.

The French government - not unreasonably - wanted them back to continue the fight, which meant that many of the men were in Britain for only a matter of days before going back across the Channel to continue the defence of France.

2. The majority of 51st (Highland) Division was captured after Op Dynamo had ended. There is something of a myth that all British troops departed France as part of Dynamo. They did not.

3. Operation Cycle (10-13 Jun 40) saw the evacuation of some 11,000 troops from Le Harve, 9,000 of whom went to Cherbourg so as to be able to carry on fighting. 51st (Highland) Dvn had been cut off, and although some of them were rescued, over 6,000 were taken prisoner.

4. Operation Ariel (15-25 Jun 40), from Cherbourg, St Malo, Brest, St Nazaire, La Pallice, Bordeaux, Le Verdon, Bayonne and St Jean-de-Luz evacuated over 190,000 British (including Canadian 1st Dvn) and Allied troops. About 24,000 of these were Polish and just over 18,000 French. The evacuation finished after the Armistice between France and Germany came into effect on 25 June.

5. After Dynamo had ended, the plan was to create what was known as 'the Second BEF', which was to be under Alan Brooke's command. 3rd Dvn (under Monty) was to be given sufficient time to rest and re-equip after Dunkirk before being sent back to France. When Brooke arrived to take command of the formation (13 June), he concluded that there was nothing that could be done to stabilise the situation and that the time had come to evacuate, hence Op Ariel. This was not a sneaky decision based upon selling out the French, but upon the fact that Weygand had told him that the French army was incapable of further organised resistance and that the plan to defend Brittany as some sort of redoubt was fanciful.

6. The Battle for Dunkirk may not be publicised, but it is remembered, forming part of the studies of both the Higher Command and Staff Course and the ICSC (Air), for example.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 05:53
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The important thing is to win the war, not the battle and then lose the war. Sometimes that takes unsavory strategic decisions.

For example I use the fact that we pulled back troops to "protect Australia". Now I don't know all the behind the scenes facts, but would like to think it was with the knowledge it wouldn't affect the war outcome.

The simple fact is, we could survive being occupied and freed, it wouldn't have gone so well if the Japs and Kruats won because of it.

At the end of the day, everyone has an opinion on "if we did this etc" scenario, the situation was to complex to be able to successfully model other outcomes. We won, basically that means we did more things right than the other side did.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 16:09
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what about those Royal Marines who raised their hands pitifully in the Chott El Arab in 2004, and then sold their stories to tabloïds ?
You'r getting your stories mixed up Reinhardt, the Story telling to the Tabloids was the HMS Cornwall incident in 2007. 2SL dropped the ball massive on that one (and it was two Sailors who sold their stories, none of the Bootnecks). The 2004 incident happened because the bootnecks could have been in Iranian waters. The two incidents have something in common, The British were not fighting Iran at the time and had no intention of starting a shooting war.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 11:05
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Arrow

Thanks Archimedes for the accurate facts (yes, a lot of boats left the French Atlantic harbours, there was much fog of war during the second half of June 1940) PM Winston Churchill took the right decision to call all of them back, otherwise they would all have been captured - so as a leader he had to save the Army for the future, which might have been very different with 100 or 200,000 soldiers less (I read all his War Memories year ago, 14 books, who did here ?)
Sadly both sides have quite often the wrong perception of the other one, the French considering that the Brits ran away, and the Brits scorning the surrender of the French...
In fact a lot of French evacuated from Dunkirk, or back from Norway, did form in England the nucleus of the Free French Forces, to be reinforced later by men from the Colonies or having escaped through Spain (or the Channel !) Some joined directly the RAF squadrons, like South Africans for example, and others fought in dedicated French units.


As rh200 rightly said, at the end Victory was there.


Some people start those stupid jokes with me being present - CRM apart, it's usually not a good starting point. Have they been at war by the way ? I happened to be.


And remember, without the Channel...
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 13:24
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And remember, without the Channel...
Reinhardt

Please, don't set that one running, it'll be never ending...( though I rather suspect I agree with your sentiments)....
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