Chuck Hagel Resigns

[Two's in]

So tell me, in spite of all these checks and balances, if Obama says (for example) that from tomorrow everybody has to paint their face bright blue, will you all be walking about blue-faced next week?

TTN,

Only if he can find existing Laws or a clear intent in the Constitution that supports blue faces. If not the Supreme Court will overturn it, but while waiting for that challenge, some people will definitely have blue faces.

Congress can also launch the "anti-blue face law" to counter the Executive Order, but Barry can then veto that Law unless it has a super majority of 66% of the Congress, which is usually political suicide for those in the same party as the President who vote against him.

In 2 years however, the next guy or girl can overturn any Executive Order he or she doesn't take a shine to. Now do you see why nothing ever gets done except the interminable wank-fest of self serving politicians?

[ihoharv]

oh please gawd...

send this over to Jet Blast - USA Politics - Hamster Wheel where the same ol' half dozen or so angry misanthropes can scream at each other.

BTW: don't worry boys there will soon be another White President. Not that you'll like her much better...

[Tankertrashnav]

I agree up to a point, ihoharv but actually, for a political thread this has been much calmer than the ones on JB, probably because some of the "usual suspects" haven't noticed it!

Two's in - thanks for the explanation. I'm gradually getting to grips with the US system of government. Oh, and in the light of your answer I'm getting into face paint futures, just in case Obama reads PPRuNe!

[KenV]

My serious question in this instance was the news that the President had apparently enacted a law concerning the status of immigrants that was opposed to the wishes of the majority in both the Senate and Congress. It appeared that in spite of the checks and balances which you explain in your post, in this instance the President was able to act as a de facto dictator and there was nothing the legislature could do about it.

First off, there is some controversy about whether or not Obama exceeded his authority with his latest executive order. It's not quite that black and white. In any event there are two immediate remedies:

1. Since Congress controls the purse strings, Congress can defund implementation of Obama's executive order. Government runs on money and without funds to execute the order, the order is effectively mooted.

2. Congress can pass new legislation that undoes legislatively what Obama did with his executive power.

Sadly, Congress is in such a mess that it will take them months or years to accomplish either one so this "check" is weak due to political machinations.

Longer term, one of the 50 states affected by the executive order (or even an individual, but this is a very remote possibility) can sue in federal court and claim that the president exceeded his authority and violated the constitution. This will enable the Judicial Branch to kill the executive order. This has already been done with portions of the ACA. Sadly, the judiciary moves slowly.

So tell me, in spite of all these checks and balances, if Obama says (for example) that from tomorrow everybody has to paint their face bright blue, will you all be walking about blue-faced next week?

Technically, Obama can do no such thing. Let me explain.

In the case of this immigration executive order, Obama is responsible for enforcing immigration laws. His executive order directs the immigration officers (whom he controls) how they will enforce those laws. Some interpret that his executive order to his immigration officers effectively countermands the immigration laws enacted by Congress. His order probably does, but maybe does not countermand those laws. We'll have to wait to see how that plays out.

In any event, Obama simply has zero power to direct private citizens or state authorities to paint their faces blue or do any other thing by executive order. He could (theoretically) direct those federal officers who work in the executive branch (he only controls officers in the executive branch. He cannot control officers in the judicial or legislative branches of government) to paint THEIR faces blue. But that would almost certainly result in those officers either quitting so he no longer has control of them, or just plain defying him without quitting. After all, who would Obama direct to enforce his decree?

[brickhistory]

More germane, perhaps, than this particular Executive Order, which is generally believed to be far beyond the scope of previous ones

- and every President has issued such; usually for some sort of administrative reason within the Executive Branch that affects the behavior of only the Executive Branch personnel -

is that if it takes a very long time to be overturned/defunded, then the next President is very likely to take the concept even further, regardless of political party. Much easier to govern by fiat than negotiation.

Nothing new in the thought, but power accumulates, it generally doesn't disperse without something going 'bang.'

That is my genuine fear. That the separation of powers was a good run for a bit over two centuries, but that those days are waning.

[KenV]

That is my genuine fear. That the separation of powers was a good run for a bit over two centuries, but that those days are waning.

Maybe. Maybe not. One thing is certain. Abraham Lincoln used his executive power FAR more broadly than Obama has so far. And the union survived, albeit barely. So this is not really all that new.

[Heathrow Harry]

Abe also had a bloody great Army at hand

[KenV]

Abe also had a bloody great Army at hand

Two comments:

1. The "greatness" of that army can be debated forever. But one thing is beyond much debate. Many (most?) of the Generals that ran that Army were miserably inept and regularly defeated by smaller and much less well equipped forces.

2. Non sequitur. Abe's Army had little or nothing to do with the Executive Orders he issued. The Army (and Navy, and Air Force and Marine Corps) that Obama commands are far superior to Abe's even in relative terms, and they have nothing to do with his latest executive order.

[Lonewolf_50]

If we could get back to Chuck Hagel, the Secretary of Defense on the way out ... and for that matter, who was Abe Lincoln's secretary of war?

He had two.
Simon Cameron Pennsylvania
March 5, 1861 January 14, 1862

The gent obviously was unable to cope with generals and with the war in progress in 1862.

Edwin M. Stanton Pennsylvania
January 20, 1862 May 28, 1868
Outlasted the president and served president Andrew Johnson as well.

However, he was one of those radical reconstructionist 's who eventually pissed off President Johnson so badly that he was fired. Johnson, like Lincoln, was not in favor of the Radical Reconstruction. His intent was to heal the nation's wounds. The RR's were all about rubbing salt into the wounds.

Stanton being fired led to the impeachment of President Johnson. For all that Stanton was a right prick, he handled the cabinet post well enough.

Secretary of War or Secretary of Defense: the cabinet position is one where one serves at the pleasure of the President. If the President isn't pleased, you get sacked.

Best wishes, Chuck Hagel, and thanks for the effort.

[KenV]

Secretary of War or Secretary of Defense: the cabinet position is one where one serves at the pleasure of the President. If the President isn't pleased, you get sacked.

True enough. But then again that's true of every cabinet level position. The interesting part is that no one seems to want to take over the SecDef job. Obama seems to have so poisoned those waters with his micromanagement, that everyone so far has turned down the job. It'll be interesting to see who finally decides to be Obama's yes man at SecDef.

[Heathrow Harry]

Well Ken the Union Army WAS run by a bunch of turkeys but they won in the end - and in fact every year of the war the Confederacy east of the Mississippi (the bit that counted) was smaller than it had been at at the start of that year so someone was doing the right thing

Seem to remember that Abe used troops to enforce a number of his exec. orders in various places

[KenV]

Seem to remember that Abe used troops to enforce a number of his exec. orders in various places

Indeed he did. Then again he was in the midst of a full on civil war and declared marshal law here and there as required. But the bottom line is that the union survived a President who was willing to push his powers to the limit and pushed them much farther and much more often than Obama. Hopefully the next president will not build on Obama's precedent and see how far (s)he can push his/her executive powers.

[KenV]

Just a quick update on the "King Obama" sub thread.

The State of Texas has sued Obama in federal court about his Executive Order concerning illegal immigrants. So yeah, the system of checks and balances is working.

[Heathrow Harry]

how long before it gets to the Supreme Court??

5 years?????

[Lonewolf_50]

Ken, I prefer the system of Czechs and brewmasters in your neck of the woods.

[KenV]

how long before it gets to the Supreme Court?? 5 years?????

Hard to say, but probably quicker than that. In any event, it'll get reviewed by a local federal court fairly soon. That court could kill the Executive Order pretty quickly. Of course Obama could appeal, dragging things out. But even then, it would likely take less then 5 years before the Supremes decide.

[KenV]

My neck of the woods (south central Texas) was settled by Germans, not Czechs. The Czech part of Texas is around Waco, a few hours north of here.

[Lonewolf_50]

Plenty of Czechs in and around Yokum and Shiner ... to include the ancestors of a couple of people I am related to by marriage ... but I guess the density might be more as you say.

[KenV]

Yup. Prince Solms of Braunfels originally settled this area around 1844/45. He was a huge supporter of the Adelsverein. Prince Solms named New Braunfels in honor of his homeland There's still lots of places here that bear his name as well as the name of his wife and his daughter.

[West Coast]

how long before it gets to the Supreme Court??

What does the Supreme Court have to do with it? Plenty of intended government action has been derailed at far lower levels by judges few have ever heard of.