No "boots on the ground" ?
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No "boots on the ground" ?
This from Sky news:
General Lord Dannatt says the West may have to "think the unthinkable" if the combination of local forces and air strikes fails.
UK Troops May Need To Fight IS - Ex-Army Chief
General Lord Dannatt says the West may have to "think the unthinkable" if the combination of local forces and air strikes fails.
UK Troops May Need To Fight IS - Ex-Army Chief
Lord Dannett is a man that understands warfare. From that perspective I'm sure he's right. How about the public's opinion of putting ourselves about again? How about our politicians' resolve? Doubtful. On the other hand, if you're serious about defeating these monsters, what are you going to do? Write more newspaper articles? Condemn them publicly? Declare that they are war criminals?
Loads of obvious questions, but someone has to make a choice. The current state of play is neither one thing nor the other.
Loads of obvious questions, but someone has to make a choice. The current state of play is neither one thing nor the other.
Agreed. Authorising air action only, thinking it could be limited to this, was stupid.
I think the solution is to withdraw the aircraft and cut the funding to ISIS, but there is no political will to start what will be a major argument with the Saudis and Qataris, among others.
http://www.dw.de/who-finances-isis/a-17720149
I think the solution is to withdraw the aircraft and cut the funding to ISIS, but there is no political will to start what will be a major argument with the Saudis and Qataris, among others.
http://www.dw.de/who-finances-isis/a-17720149
Personally: Leave; offer refugee status to the Christians and let the muslims carry on killing each other. Pretty soon, the Saudis are going to realise allowing financing of ISIS is a bloody bad idea when the war spills over their border.
As Iraq and Afghanistan should have taught the West, insufficient forces and attempts to impose democracy have not only failed but cost a humongous amount of money.
We won WW2 by only accepting unconditional surrender, and were prepared to use nukes and firestorms to get it. They arguably won't work against insurgencies, but the principle of unconditional surrender does apply, I think.
If you have a plan that will work, I'm listening; but I object strongly to tokenism that doesn't work. Dannatt says what we are doing isn't working.
p.s. by my reading, I don't think Dannatt thinks troops on the ground is going to work either.
Oh. p.p.s. I did email my MP, and he did vote against sending Canadian aircraft to attack ISIS (though I doubt it was just because I asked)
As Iraq and Afghanistan should have taught the West, insufficient forces and attempts to impose democracy have not only failed but cost a humongous amount of money.
We won WW2 by only accepting unconditional surrender, and were prepared to use nukes and firestorms to get it. They arguably won't work against insurgencies, but the principle of unconditional surrender does apply, I think.
If you have a plan that will work, I'm listening; but I object strongly to tokenism that doesn't work. Dannatt says what we are doing isn't working.
p.s. by my reading, I don't think Dannatt thinks troops on the ground is going to work either.
Oh. p.p.s. I did email my MP, and he did vote against sending Canadian aircraft to attack ISIS (though I doubt it was just because I asked)
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 16th Nov 2014 at 22:51.
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Danatt wants boots on the ground for one reason alone; to create an atmosphere that makes it difficult to give the army the scything the navy and RAF have had in the previous sdsr.
If we want to win, we need to stop piss balling around with roe and get the job done properly. Until we see hundreds of the buggers dead per week, Bombed out of existence with nowhere to hide and cities that support them made an example of, we will not win. Hearts and minds simply does not enter in this fight, like our campaign towards the end with Japan, only wholesale slaughter will do, until they fully understand that they are flies to be squished at our time and choosing. Single brimstone shots ain't going to cut the mustard. Nothing less than a full declaration of war in short. Let's stop pretending that they deserve human rights and the chance of democracy, they don't!
the Kurds have sufficient strength to deal with this, we need to cut ISIS lines of communication interdict and prevent freedom of movement whilst providing the Kurds and Assad with battlefield CAS wherever they meet resistance. We have the means to do it, let's steamroller the bastards.
If we want to win, we need to stop piss balling around with roe and get the job done properly. Until we see hundreds of the buggers dead per week, Bombed out of existence with nowhere to hide and cities that support them made an example of, we will not win. Hearts and minds simply does not enter in this fight, like our campaign towards the end with Japan, only wholesale slaughter will do, until they fully understand that they are flies to be squished at our time and choosing. Single brimstone shots ain't going to cut the mustard. Nothing less than a full declaration of war in short. Let's stop pretending that they deserve human rights and the chance of democracy, they don't!
the Kurds have sufficient strength to deal with this, we need to cut ISIS lines of communication interdict and prevent freedom of movement whilst providing the Kurds and Assad with battlefield CAS wherever they meet resistance. We have the means to do it, let's steamroller the bastards.
Last edited by VinRouge; 17th Nov 2014 at 07:35.
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Time that we gave them the support to start picking up ak47s and pitch forks and reclaim their towns then. Other option is to side with isis, get your home dropped on you. Are you really telling me cities of over a million couldn't overthrow and throw out ISIS? The experience of he Kurds in Kobane indicates otherwise.
Same scenario as the one we encountered in basrah. Good willed locals pissed off at inaction and an unwillingness to take gloves off led to defeat. Instead of pandering to lawyers we should stick to what we could be exceptional at. For all the criticism of Assad by the west, there has to be some stark realisation now that his response is the only response to militant Islam.
Same scenario as the one we encountered in basrah. Good willed locals pissed off at inaction and an unwillingness to take gloves off led to defeat. Instead of pandering to lawyers we should stick to what we could be exceptional at. For all the criticism of Assad by the west, there has to be some stark realisation now that his response is the only response to militant Islam.
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IF we do anything I hope it's done very cleverly and with a war winning set of ROEs.
Every time I see a news report about ISIS they are made out to be monsters, and evil killers. I see this as their propaganda machine just being better than the Wests efforts at labelling them.
What ISIS seem to be doing to SEPs is nothing new and is no worse than happened to conscripted allied soldiers in various theatres of WW2, or several other conflicts.
What is massively different are our current ROEs which are a bit of a joke IMHO, and are more like police actions that war strategies.
As long as UK doctrine includes things like a show or force or show of presence then we need to keep well away from conflict. From my own limited knowledge of operations which come from a green background, an aircraft dropping bombs on me shows more force than a flypast !
I'm also frustrated that our leaders aren't making the most of the Internet or social media to counter the PR savvyness of ISIS.
It's easily done, and can be done to ridicule ISIS or just to make them appear undesirable to their supporters.
Every time I see a news report about ISIS they are made out to be monsters, and evil killers. I see this as their propaganda machine just being better than the Wests efforts at labelling them.
What ISIS seem to be doing to SEPs is nothing new and is no worse than happened to conscripted allied soldiers in various theatres of WW2, or several other conflicts.
What is massively different are our current ROEs which are a bit of a joke IMHO, and are more like police actions that war strategies.
As long as UK doctrine includes things like a show or force or show of presence then we need to keep well away from conflict. From my own limited knowledge of operations which come from a green background, an aircraft dropping bombs on me shows more force than a flypast !
I'm also frustrated that our leaders aren't making the most of the Internet or social media to counter the PR savvyness of ISIS.
It's easily done, and can be done to ridicule ISIS or just to make them appear undesirable to their supporters.
Lord Dannett is a man that understands warfare. From that perspective I'm sure he's right.
You've got a Shia/Sunni proxy war between Iran/Syria and Saudi/Qatar being fought in a third country (Iraq), combined with a couple of interested "bystanders" in Turkey and the Red Sea Pedestrians. Some of the proxies are "palatable" to us, others are most definitely not and some are actually "legitimate" government forces, whether we like it or not. And there's another headcase on the sidelines who is gagging to prove his machismo to his own populace and those in the region of conflict. There is no secure MSR and there are no "front lines" per se.
This has Brer Rabbits tar-baby written all over it and whether we like it or not there may be no military solution that "we" can impose. I think Dannatt is absolutely correct that the current "strategy" is not really a strategy at all, merely a media-led expression that "something must be done". However, the answer cannot possibly be putting any sort of affordable western ground force in place for any sort of time.
The basic problem lies in both the Shia/Sunni schism and the powerblocs that are stirring that schism to further their own ends. Until they wind their necks in, you have no hope of a solution.
It would not surprise me one bit if
to create an atmosphere that makes it difficult to give the army the scything the navy and RAF have had in the previous sdsr.
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My personal opinion is that this is one for information ops above all else. Quite how we have let some barbaric murderers, who are self proclaimed jihadis - murder countless Muslims without being brave enough to point it out is beyond me.
We let these idiots broadcast the bile that accompanies their videos without challenging them - other than our posh man in a suit who talks (laughably) of bringing them to justice. We let them talk of revenge for air strikes but they accepted ransoms for some hostages...seems incoherent. They talk of a caliphate but are murdering Muslims...seems incoherent. They say they are Muslims, but murder women and children...seems incoherent.
Where's our info ops campaign? 'You want to go overseas and behead Muslims in the name of Muslims? Would you mind expanding on the idea because to us it seems a little odd?'
We did exactly the same in Iraq last time. We let vociferous morons disrupt parades of 'Western baby killers' coming home when actually our boys had actually spent the entire tour attempting to stop Sunni and Shia murdering each other.
We let these idiots broadcast the bile that accompanies their videos without challenging them - other than our posh man in a suit who talks (laughably) of bringing them to justice. We let them talk of revenge for air strikes but they accepted ransoms for some hostages...seems incoherent. They talk of a caliphate but are murdering Muslims...seems incoherent. They say they are Muslims, but murder women and children...seems incoherent.
Where's our info ops campaign? 'You want to go overseas and behead Muslims in the name of Muslims? Would you mind expanding on the idea because to us it seems a little odd?'
We did exactly the same in Iraq last time. We let vociferous morons disrupt parades of 'Western baby killers' coming home when actually our boys had actually spent the entire tour attempting to stop Sunni and Shia murdering each other.
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Orca
This is politics, there's no place for common sense here
I sometimes feel that the West should arm ISIS themselves.
Drop in a few challengers here, some Leopards a few miles away and some Abrams somewhere else.
After a short while of 'tank envy' and ego boosting I'm sure a lot of the tanks would be destroyed and there would be fewer ISIS troops alive
It's a crazy idea..........but it might just work !
On the other hand we could start deploying LSD again. It was never as good as envisaged but I'm sick of hearing God is great every few seconds, maybe a burst of God is really groovy or bright and colourful would make a nice change
This is politics, there's no place for common sense here
I sometimes feel that the West should arm ISIS themselves.
Drop in a few challengers here, some Leopards a few miles away and some Abrams somewhere else.
After a short while of 'tank envy' and ego boosting I'm sure a lot of the tanks would be destroyed and there would be fewer ISIS troops alive
It's a crazy idea..........but it might just work !
On the other hand we could start deploying LSD again. It was never as good as envisaged but I'm sick of hearing God is great every few seconds, maybe a burst of God is really groovy or bright and colourful would make a nice change
I can see that we are dropping lots of hugely expensive weapons on where the enemy, whoever they may be, was supposed to be a few minutes ago and I may have missed it but what, precisely, is the mission in Iraq and what would constitute success? How many Brimstone have we got left, for example, and how long will the stock last?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
GW 2 was a classic modern battlefield - a semi-solid front line and rapid mobility as demonstrated first by the Wehrmacht. Subsequent actions have followed the fire base system as practised by the US Army in the 60s and 70s.
One worked, one didn't.
Create a front line, sweep through and pen every surviving enemy and security ed the civil population. Simples.
Sadly you need rather more than half a million troops.
One worked, one didn't.
Create a front line, sweep through and pen every surviving enemy and security ed the civil population. Simples.
Sadly you need rather more than half a million troops.
Because of Blair and the HRA, UK troops RoE will be hamstrung and people like Shiner from Public Interest Lawyers, who will be lining up claimants for compo.
Do we really want UK troops out in the big sandpit again, when a couple hundred kt of Trident warheads could do the job.
Do we really want UK troops out in the big sandpit again, when a couple hundred kt of Trident warheads could do the job.
what would constitute success?
The problem with conflicts since around 2003 is a complete failure by politicians to define what success is. The military cannot operate effectively without clear objectives. This is Government's job. It has failed spectacularly. And that goes for every Western Government.
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Just goes to highlight the folly of going in there in the first place...Saddam was a tyrant who murdered his own population, was a threat to western interests, harboured terrorism...
Man, I'm glad we fixed all that up.
Sending troops in now is as senseless as it was then. Like the cops with drug dealers, just let them knock each other off until there is one left standing, and then deal with him. Israel will have to step in eventually if the last man standing is one of the bad guys (e.g all of them) and decides to keep his troops on the march.
Until that happens it's better just to watch the place burn and pray for the innocents. The only way of stopping the bad guys melting back into to general population is to give them no reason to. Let them all keep fighting til they meet their virgins.
Man, I'm glad we fixed all that up.
Sending troops in now is as senseless as it was then. Like the cops with drug dealers, just let them knock each other off until there is one left standing, and then deal with him. Israel will have to step in eventually if the last man standing is one of the bad guys (e.g all of them) and decides to keep his troops on the march.
Until that happens it's better just to watch the place burn and pray for the innocents. The only way of stopping the bad guys melting back into to general population is to give them no reason to. Let them all keep fighting til they meet their virgins.
just let them knock each other off until there is one left standing, and then deal with him.
But
'let them knock each other off till there's two left standing, and then ensure one of them has a suicide vest'
Better
Actually, make sure both have vests - no point taking unnecessary risks
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Just goes to highlight the folly of going in there in the first place...Saddam was a tyrant who murdered his own population, was a threat to western interests, harboured terrorism...
The unhealthy obsession with getting rid of Assad who by all accounts was very benign until we encouraged opposition.