RAF Sidearms

[ExAscoteer]

What I meant Courtney was the std B/S from my aircrew associates who reckoned the SLP as useless.

I don't know much about the PP, but my comments stand about the SLP.

Now, give me a SiG Saur 226....

[Courtney Mil]

Ah, understood.

[rjtjrt]

In RAAF in late 80's or early 90's F-111 Crew I saw carried Glock in shoulder holster.

[NickPilot]

I'm always amused and bewildered whenever a thread pops up about UK sidearms. It seems all those who actually carried them always claim that they couldn't hit a barn/would likely shoot themselves/shoot other innocents/etc.

I am not military, but as a resident of the US I own several pistols. While I am not a hillbilly gun nut, I do try to shoot once a month at least, probably averaging 100 rds a month. With no formal training I feel confident in safely handling both revolvers and semi-auto pistols, and with the level of practice I manage I consider myself a fairly decent shot.

Is the self proclaimed lack of skill an example of British understatement, or is there some failing in sidearm training in the UK forces?

[bakseetblatherer]

If I remember correctly we got issued a well used Walther PP, per trip over Iraq, given back and put away into shared storage. So these weps were passed around and knocked about and not fired or maintained by us. I have no idea what maintenance they got, maybe these were the same PPs that were there for the entire duration of the No-Fly Zone and Telic!

Back in the UK training consisted on one mag per year, so yes it was an almost pointless exercise. In my entire time in I probably didn't reach your rounds per month, using pistols anyway.

[reynoldsno1]

My Dad had both an Enfield No.2 .38 revolver and a Beretta M1934 squirreled away in the garden shed post WW2 RAF service. After he died in the late 80's my Mum told me about them, and decided I should have a look for them.
I found the revolver fairly quickly - a hefty piece of kit. It was loaded with 4 rounds, but that was all the ammunition I could find. It seemed to be in decent nick. The Beretta was in an old hairdryer box, with a full magazine and one round chambered. Again, in good nick, and I had no problems with the moving parts and unloading it.
Mum then suggested I take them to the local police station to hand them in. I smiled sweetly, and told her I would drive her to the station and she could hand them in - there would likely be far less questions. She was in & out in less than 5 minutes ....

[NickPilot]

BSB...that seems a shame. Pistol ammunition and regular range time seems like cheap insurance.

[Like This - Do That]

Originally Posted by NickPilot

Is the self proclaimed lack of skill an example of British understatement, or is there some failing in sidearm training in the UK forces?

Nick, probably a bit of both. I'm guessing that the British forces are like us in Australia in that regard. Outside of SF, handgun training is to get someone to a standard to pass the qualification practice. As for shooting for proficiency .... pfft! Training programme approved, Ops Cell sign off, stores request for the weapons, ammo request, range booking, write a Range Instruction, do a risk assessment signed to be off by the CO, range coord meeting .... I'm sorry to say that for all the fun a day at the range is, and for all the potential training value, it's just not worth it.

That's just for proficiency; forget the sort of expertise needed when you're terrified, banged up, hands shaking, on the ground in a strange land you've just bombed!

I suspect our American cousins are more likely to be able to do their own proficiency shooting. It's nigh on impossible to own a handgun in Aus just for the fun of shooting; can be done, but the hoops through which one must jump make it almost unfeasible.

As a junior cavalry officer I was the best shot in my Regiment ... with the rifle. 9mm SLP Mk3 however, I was diabolically bad. The only bloke in the Regiment who was any good at it was a commando who had corps transferred to the Armoured Corps. He'd had lots and lots of time on the tools, so to speak, and his musle memory hadn't faded.

[Whenurhappy]

If I recall correctly the allocation for annual pistol training is a risible 25 rounds. Enough - just - to go through the drills and fire one qualification shoot.

However, before deploying to 'Afghan', a group of us managed to get a full day on the ranges with both pistol and rifle; we must have fired 100s of rounds and our proficiency - as RAF officers - no doubt improved immeasurably.

[The Baron]

The most common 'standard calibre' for WW 2 Luftwaffe pilots was .32ACP, but no real standard auto pistol for flight crew due to the large number of arms manufacturing factories that Hitler procured in the course of events. Even the Browning 9mm Hi-Power was manufactured in big numbers for the Wehrmacht, complete with Waffenamt markings. The Walther PP and PPK were fairly common in cockpits, as well as Czech CZ27, BelgianM1922 FN, Hungarian M37 and Italian Berettas.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Like This - Do That

I suspect our American cousins are more likely to be able to do their own proficiency shooting.

Remember a USAF airman coming in to the sick quarters at South Cerney holding his thumb. Apparently shot himself with his .45. I suppose it might have just bitten him

[ShotOne]

Interesting that the 1930's designed SLP (browning 9mm) should have been replaced in RAF use by the 1920's Walther, well into the 90's and beyond.

More so that they're probably outgunned by US civil airline pilots today. Those qualifying under the Federal Flight Deck Officer program carry S&W .40 cal pistols and are required to fire a lot more than 25 rounds a year,

[Lima Juliet]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is why we switched from the Browning 9mm SLP to the Walther PP? As I understand it, it was the introduction of arm restraints on the Mk10 ejection seat on the Tornado and the fact that the larger weapon under your arm in a shoulder holster could could break your arm as they were pulled in tight on ejection. The PP is smaller and wouldn't do this - however, when we went to the Combat Survival Waistcoat this was no longer a problem, so I never understood why we didn't go back to the SLP.

I used to carry 2x PPs with me over Iraq due to their somehat 'flakey' nature. I also remember there being a dodgy batch of Pakistani made 9mm ammo that was discovered and we all got about 10 mags to fire off on one CCS session. I also remember that a RAF Regt Cpl saved me from serious injury on the range when I was firing. Whilst going through a mag there was soft sounding bang from my weapon - as I went to recock the Cpl shouted "STOP!" at the top of his voice and took the weapon out of my hand. There was a bullet stuck half in/half out of my pistol due to the crap ammo - had I fired again the gun would have exploded in my face!

Over my various op flying sorties over Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan I have carried Browning 9mm SLP, Walther PP, L85 A2 (the shorter carbine variant), Sig 226 and a Diemaco C8. I felt the most confident with the last 2! I have also carried a PP whilst flying out of Goose - I think that was so that I could p!ss off the bear and then shoot myself!!!

LJ

[Tankertrashnav]

Is the self proclaimed lack of skill an example of British understatement, or is there some failing in sidearm training in the UK forces?

I'd go along with Like This do That. In my case my remarks re barn doors weren't that far from the truth, so that wasn't much of a British understatement. As regards practice, I think we were required to fire our personal weapon once a year, but I suspect it may have been less than that. The idea of going down to the armoury and signing out a weapon to take to the range just wouldnt occur to most of us, particularly as in those cold war days none of us ever thought we'd have to fire one in anger.

[MPN11]

Originally Posted by ExAscoteer

Really Courtney?
That sounds loke the standard B/S I heard from my fellow aircrew every time we dit GDT (or CCS in later years).
Get inside 50m of me (for real) with an SLP in my hands, and you are likely to be going to hospital.
Get within 25m, and you are likely to be going to an undertaker.

... glad to hear someone else knows how accurate the L9A1 is/was

Have we met at Bisley, perchance?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I was told, on good authority, that the real reason RAF aircrew got the PP was because the number needed roughly matched the number given up by the Protection crowd after the Princess Anne failure. The other reasons were made up after to justify it.

Loved the Browning. Couldn't hit a damn thing with the PP. In fact the PP is the only weapon, ground or air, that I haven't got top rating on.

Will be buying a Browning or a Sig P226 with my own money.

[Al R]

RAF Regt Cpl saved me

Leon,

Backbone of the Air Force, apparently.

[ShotOne]

I'd second that, tt nav. I took issue with an airline colleague who'd left the RAF around '00 and described the Browning as "hopelessly inaccurate". We visited a gun range on arrival in Florida to settle matters. He got the bug, and as a result we both fire more rounds and shoot better than at any time in our respective RAF careers.

[John Eacott]

We took range practice terribly seriously: Admiral Granuzzo USN was obviously more skilled in cold war weaponry

[Out Of Trim]

As an RAF Enlisted Airman, in my day; our personal weapon was the L1A1 SLR (British version of the FN FAL Rifle in 7.62mm NATO.) We had good initial instruction and plenty of rounds in basic training. However, after that in my early career we had an annual GDT and only had around 40 rounds each. On Exercise we were lucky to get around 10 blanks to fire off.

Guard Duty was often carried out with an empty magazine until, enough IRA incidents persuaded the Senior Officers to allow us live ammunition. In later yaars, the late 80s prior to Guard Duty we got extra Range Time and plenty of rounds to play with at last.

Unfortunately, we never got access to any sidearms, they were for Officers only. SNCOs usually got the 9mm SMG.