National insignia...lack of.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
National insignia...lack of.
Why is it that national insignia on Brit/US military aircraft now seem barely visible to the naked eye.
I just looked at a photo of a Herc' touch and going at Duxford (ahem, on some
other Forum). One could just make out a blue/red round spec on the fuselage and a sub-atomic sized blue/red bar on the fin.
Are we ashamed of ourselves or something?
I think my favorite would be the NEAF paint/insignia on the Beverly's, or the blue/white of the Transport Command Comets. Such confidence.
I just looked at a photo of a Herc' touch and going at Duxford (ahem, on some
other Forum). One could just make out a blue/red round spec on the fuselage and a sub-atomic sized blue/red bar on the fin.
Are we ashamed of ourselves or something?
I think my favorite would be the NEAF paint/insignia on the Beverly's, or the blue/white of the Transport Command Comets. Such confidence.
In the old days aircraft wore their insignia and medals with pride - witness this 47 Sqn Beverley at Gan, photographed by me on 14th February 1958.
The nose of the aircraft sports the arms of the town of Abingdon (where it was based) and above the arms the ribbon of the GSM annotated underneath “Malaya”.
The nose of the aircraft sports the arms of the town of Abingdon (where it was based) and above the arms the ribbon of the GSM annotated underneath “Malaya”.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The white in the rounded glows nicely through NVG and by day it used to be a good bullseye.
The tone down reflects the last 20 years of combat operations.
The tone down reflects the last 20 years of combat operations.
Barely visible to the naked eye. Why do you think we paint our aircraft such boring colours? As PN correctly illuded to, no point in toning down the aircraft if you the paint a brightly coloured bullseye on it.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,831
Received 2,799 Likes
on
1,192 Posts
Have you seen the Back to the Future film, the one in the Wild West?
Well it's a bit like the photo he has in that, when the RAF was large and had lots of aircraft, the roundel was emblazoned over the whole side of the aircraft, bright and brash... Take the spitfire as an example.... now the RAF is tiny in comparison the Roundel has shrunk in proportion to the reduction in the RAF and is fading away as in the Back to the Future photograph.... Either that or the MOD has realised they can get the paint cheaper by not adding so many colour solids into the mix.
Well it's a bit like the photo he has in that, when the RAF was large and had lots of aircraft, the roundel was emblazoned over the whole side of the aircraft, bright and brash... Take the spitfire as an example.... now the RAF is tiny in comparison the Roundel has shrunk in proportion to the reduction in the RAF and is fading away as in the Back to the Future photograph.... Either that or the MOD has realised they can get the paint cheaper by not adding so many colour solids into the mix.
While we're on the subject but drifting slightly, I notice that our military personnel are wearing British and US insignia in tandem. If we can have a reasonable grasp of the badges of rank of the five principal US armed services, is it too much to ask that they do the reverse? I'm not suggesting that they can identify a 'Squadron Corporal Major of Horse in Dismounted Dress Review Order' but in general terms, it ain't difficult!
Old Duffer
Old Duffer
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stendec5 - NutLoose - I suppose all that is why the US went to low-vis paint for the USAF, USN, & USMC tactical combat aircraft in 1982 then?
The way it was explained to us then (I was in FLIR school at NSA Whidbey Island, WA at the time) was that the new paint showed up less in IR as well as visible light (remember those Soviet IRST units in their fighters) - and that it incorporated RAM ingredients to boot.
How much of that was true as opposed to the official claims I don't know, but I do know from personal observations that you could see the aircraft in the old schemes far more clearly in the A-6E's FLIR than you could those in the new paint.
The way it was explained to us then (I was in FLIR school at NSA Whidbey Island, WA at the time) was that the new paint showed up less in IR as well as visible light (remember those Soviet IRST units in their fighters) - and that it incorporated RAM ingredients to boot.
How much of that was true as opposed to the official claims I don't know, but I do know from personal observations that you could see the aircraft in the old schemes far more clearly in the A-6E's FLIR than you could those in the new paint.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,558
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
OD - as I discovered on a NATO tour many years ago.... most Americans do not have a clue when it comes to other nations' ranks and insignia. Dual insignia at least shows them who an officer is which is most useful in an operational theatre! (And yes - I was known by my US rank of Captain and not Flt Lt).
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,831
Received 2,799 Likes
on
1,192 Posts
Cross ranking used to be a bit of a bummer if you visited a Luftwaffle base, there a corporal and below would dine in the conscripts facilities and they were dire, as the system cross ranked you as their equivalent, hence everyone became Sgts for the visit.
Gentleman Aviator
While we're on the subject but drifting slightly, I notice that our military personnel are wearing British and US insignia in tandem. If we can have a reasonable grasp of the badges of rank of the five principal US armed services, is it too much to ask that they do the reverse?
In Kuwait just before the 2nd Gulf "Unpleasantness", one wore Kuwaiti rank alongside RAF. My successor adopted US rank badges as well.
Come to that, much of the British Army seem confused by what they call our "bar codes".
Last edited by teeteringhead; 28th Oct 2014 at 13:46.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 418 Likes
on
221 Posts
I can think of one very good reason to tone down the RAF roundel:
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Nutty, USAF too.
At Offutt the Det was all unranked.
Once, travelling through Hickam we were all in civvies. One of our ground crew took one look in the airmens abulutions where there were no doors, obviously an economy measure
, and up ranked himself.
In the officers facilities, suitable for limbo dancers, he removed his suit jacket, rolled up his shirt sleeves ready to wash. A major apologised and made way for him. I could hardly keep a straight face.
At Offutt the Det was all unranked.
Once, travelling through Hickam we were all in civvies. One of our ground crew took one look in the airmens abulutions where there were no doors, obviously an economy measure
, and up ranked himself.In the officers facilities, suitable for limbo dancers, he removed his suit jacket, rolled up his shirt sleeves ready to wash. A major apologised and made way for him. I could hardly keep a straight face.
Out of all the insignia the MAcr appeared to be the one that was instantly noticed and honoured.
Whether it is truly necessary for a USAF 3-star to salute the holder of such rank is up for debate but the respect looked genuine.
Whether it is truly necessary for a USAF 3-star to salute the holder of such rank is up for debate but the respect looked genuine.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Northern Ireland in about 1972, we blacked-out the white of the Wessex roundels, and borrowed some Land Rover green paint to camouflage our white helmets. It was after that we had green flying gloves instead of the pale version.
Flying gloves make good golf gloves.
Flying gloves make good golf gloves.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
I don't know whether it still applies, but when I served with the UN everyone saluted everyone else. We had about half-a-dozen nations operating together, and it seemed the best solution (apart from nobody saluting anybody, but let's not go there).
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 59
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lad I knew was accommodate in the Senior Ranks Mess for a night at an RN establishment.
He didn't enlighten them as to what rank a Senior Air Craftsman was equivalent to.
He didn't enlighten them as to what rank a Senior Air Craftsman was equivalent to.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course I understand the toning-down/camouflage angle. But look at the Typhoons (1944 version) front line combat types right at the coal face, nice big roundels to boot.
However, I did forget that this is Cameron's Britain and paint costs money.
I'll get my coat.
However, I did forget that this is Cameron's Britain and paint costs money.
I'll get my coat.