Give us a gun!
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Now if only we operated a type to carry it
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Type,
I think the Apache can use CRV-7s, can't it? Oh, and the Harrier did.
The laser guided 'Hydra 70' rocket came out of a US Army programme called 'APKWS' (Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System) - got started in 02, relaunched as APKWS II in 2005, and then transferred over to the US Navy in 08, as the USMC saw the potential. A BAE/NG/GD team won the contract, but LM have continued to market their own solution.
The MoD was briefed on APKWS as early as 98, but there was zero interest from anyone - at that time, the focus was on Storm Shadow and Brimstone, aiming at hardened targets or tanks. The potential of marrying an APKWS guidance system with the very powerful and accurate CRV7 rocket was never, as far as I know, looked at seriously. At the time, CRV7s were only a UOR for the RAF, but some efforts were being made to bring them into core. However, once Jags and Harriers were canned, only Apache was left.
I understand that CRV7s have been extensively used in Afghanistan by UK Apaches, but there does not seem to have been much coverage of that.
The situation in Iraq and Syria is seems to be, in my opinion, one which a guided CRV7 could be very useful. It comfortably outranges ground based guns, has low collateral damage (with most warheads - the flechette load less so) and comes in at well below a Brimstone. It's also highly effective against the sorts of targets that seem to be there, mainly due to the range of warheads available.
Most usefully for those on the ground we are trying to help, it would give one aircraft many more deliverable loads than we can deliver at present. My 'take' on what is happening out there is that the current levels of air support are not concentrated enough, heavy enough or prolonged enough to stop a determined, well trained and widely dispersed ground force advancing over wide areas into urban areas, where they are much harder to find and hit. A jet that can attack two targets and then has to go home seems, in my view, to be less useful than one that could attack eight or ten.
Best Regards as ever to those doing their best in a god awful place
Engines
I think the Apache can use CRV-7s, can't it? Oh, and the Harrier did.
The laser guided 'Hydra 70' rocket came out of a US Army programme called 'APKWS' (Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System) - got started in 02, relaunched as APKWS II in 2005, and then transferred over to the US Navy in 08, as the USMC saw the potential. A BAE/NG/GD team won the contract, but LM have continued to market their own solution.
The MoD was briefed on APKWS as early as 98, but there was zero interest from anyone - at that time, the focus was on Storm Shadow and Brimstone, aiming at hardened targets or tanks. The potential of marrying an APKWS guidance system with the very powerful and accurate CRV7 rocket was never, as far as I know, looked at seriously. At the time, CRV7s were only a UOR for the RAF, but some efforts were being made to bring them into core. However, once Jags and Harriers were canned, only Apache was left.
I understand that CRV7s have been extensively used in Afghanistan by UK Apaches, but there does not seem to have been much coverage of that.
The situation in Iraq and Syria is seems to be, in my opinion, one which a guided CRV7 could be very useful. It comfortably outranges ground based guns, has low collateral damage (with most warheads - the flechette load less so) and comes in at well below a Brimstone. It's also highly effective against the sorts of targets that seem to be there, mainly due to the range of warheads available.
Most usefully for those on the ground we are trying to help, it would give one aircraft many more deliverable loads than we can deliver at present. My 'take' on what is happening out there is that the current levels of air support are not concentrated enough, heavy enough or prolonged enough to stop a determined, well trained and widely dispersed ground force advancing over wide areas into urban areas, where they are much harder to find and hit. A jet that can attack two targets and then has to go home seems, in my view, to be less useful than one that could attack eight or ten.
Best Regards as ever to those doing their best in a god awful place
Engines
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Gents,
This is all about selecting your most precise weapon and minimising collateral footprint. Everyone's seen the video on BBC and are, for reasons various, baulking at the cost per missile of DM Brimstone. My take is that there aren't very many people on PpRuNe who know what the other considerations around the wider target area were at the time of such attacks against ISIL - these could very well have driven the selection of that weapon so I'm not going to armchair critique the weapon choice and really couldn't give a damn about the cost. Nope.
CRV-7 is a great little weapon; cheap but unguided (i.e. non-precision, which is a bad word in modern conflict), so you've no really sweet moving target capability and you'd need to fire a number on one pass which isn't a good choice when you've a one shot kill option in another weapon. [Engines, granted, if we had an APKWS solution it would be a different story.]
Cannon is good too; lower dispersion, many varieties of bullet to choose from etc. Again, you'd need to fire quite a lot of rounds close-in to the potential threat.
For me, DM Brimstone is an excellent weapon against small, agile/moving targets where you have collateral concerns. We don't have anything else like it on UK Combat Air and even our US cousins are quite envious of its capabilities, proven in Afghanistan on many occasions.
This is all about selecting your most precise weapon and minimising collateral footprint. Everyone's seen the video on BBC and are, for reasons various, baulking at the cost per missile of DM Brimstone. My take is that there aren't very many people on PpRuNe who know what the other considerations around the wider target area were at the time of such attacks against ISIL - these could very well have driven the selection of that weapon so I'm not going to armchair critique the weapon choice and really couldn't give a damn about the cost. Nope.
CRV-7 is a great little weapon; cheap but unguided (i.e. non-precision, which is a bad word in modern conflict), so you've no really sweet moving target capability and you'd need to fire a number on one pass which isn't a good choice when you've a one shot kill option in another weapon. [Engines, granted, if we had an APKWS solution it would be a different story.]
Cannon is good too; lower dispersion, many varieties of bullet to choose from etc. Again, you'd need to fire quite a lot of rounds close-in to the potential threat.
For me, DM Brimstone is an excellent weapon against small, agile/moving targets where you have collateral concerns. We don't have anything else like it on UK Combat Air and even our US cousins are quite envious of its capabilities, proven in Afghanistan on many occasions.
When you add all the support costs, fuel, tanking, manning, logistics and all the enablers required to bring 2 Tornados to bear the price of a DMB is tiny.
If you add all the support costs, fuel, tanking, manning, logistics and all the enablers required to bring 2 Tornados to bear, yet fire or drop nothing because the cheaper weapon you have does not meet the RoE / CDE, you end up with quite a wasteful and fruitless expense on your hands.
Having 3 types of weapons on-board, with a brace of different fusing and targeting options plus a guy in the capacity seat operating a good sensor is a cost-effective capability.
If you add all the support costs, fuel, tanking, manning, logistics and all the enablers required to bring 2 Tornados to bear, yet fire or drop nothing because the cheaper weapon you have does not meet the RoE / CDE, you end up with quite a wasteful and fruitless expense on your hands.
Having 3 types of weapons on-board, with a brace of different fusing and targeting options plus a guy in the capacity seat operating a good sensor is a cost-effective capability.
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JTO, couldn't agree more chap!
It's also an astoundingly effective and lethal combination when it needs to be!
Having 3 types of weapons on-board, with a brace of different fusing and targeting options plus a guy in the capacity seat operating a good sensor is a cost-effective capability.
VinRouge has a point. We all know that in pure military terms we and our coalition partners are more than capable of wiping ISIS off the map in a matter of days.
However, politics has a habit of getting in the way, and as before we tiptoe around dropping a bomb here, a missile there, scared witless that we might do something that could be seen to be even slightly wrong. But at the same time we use the sort of rhetoric that would suggest that the whole military might of the coalition is to be unleashed against ISIS.
The result? Well, we're back in Iraq again, aren't we?
However, politics has a habit of getting in the way, and as before we tiptoe around dropping a bomb here, a missile there, scared witless that we might do something that could be seen to be even slightly wrong. But at the same time we use the sort of rhetoric that would suggest that the whole military might of the coalition is to be unleashed against ISIS.
The result? Well, we're back in Iraq again, aren't we?
Laser Guided 2.75 rockets are alive and well. (IIRC, Hydra)
Does the CRV7 not have such a kit? The wiki article suggests that it does, or something similar. (Grain of salt, of course). If not, it would be a great upgrade to a good weapon. The political issues on collateral damage are here to stay.
I had heard that the Zunni (5") rockets had received a laser guidance kit, and the wiki article suggests that live fire tests were successful in 2010. Guessing they are available now.
Seems that the kit needed to match various targets is available. The question is, what do you carry on a given mission?
Does the CRV7 not have such a kit? The wiki article suggests that it does, or something similar. (Grain of salt, of course). If not, it would be a great upgrade to a good weapon. The political issues on collateral damage are here to stay.
I had heard that the Zunni (5") rockets had received a laser guidance kit, and the wiki article suggests that live fire tests were successful in 2010. Guessing they are available now.
Seems that the kit needed to match various targets is available. The question is, what do you carry on a given mission?
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Bearing in mind where Abdul and his mates are fighting, we should be clearing out the refugees to internationally supported centres along the Turkish border, whilst flattening every single place of refuge within a 50 mile boundary of the Turkish and Syrian border. Take out all electrical and water supplies and cut off lines of communication. Let's see how they get on in 55 degrees ambient with no air con and no water supplies. Without freedom of movement they can't get up to much.
Once this is done, use sentinel MTI to pick up Toyota hilux or whatever vehicles have been supplied by the Qatari and Saudi sponsors. Smash the **** out of each and every one, even if all it has is a load of slabs of water in the boot. They need to be in no doubt that if they want to terrorise us, we will do the same, will not stop until their ideology is destroyed, killing every single one of them and stopping for nothing to achieve this.
A good example of where ideology was a centre of gravity was hamburg. When we smashed hamburg, it was the first time the Nazi government but also the population realising it want all blitzkrieg, Poland and roses; it was also the start of the first plots,by German generals to lead a coup against the NazI leadership. http://ww2today.com/29th-july-1943-g...-hamburg-raids
The Russians got it in Chechnya,The French foreign legion got it in Algeria with very brutal treatment of the Islamist insurgency, the Israelis recently got it in Beirut and the Lebanon and until we start to learn to fight dirty, on their terms, we will continue to lose. I have taken part in two failed ops, partly down to a refusal to take off the gloves, they will not get we mean business until we start playing proper hardball.
What is happening to he Kurds in Northern Iraq is frankly disgusting. We should be fully behind them and not expecting ageing old women and female teenagers to be doing a job the international community should be doing, but isn't, properly.
Once this is done, use sentinel MTI to pick up Toyota hilux or whatever vehicles have been supplied by the Qatari and Saudi sponsors. Smash the **** out of each and every one, even if all it has is a load of slabs of water in the boot. They need to be in no doubt that if they want to terrorise us, we will do the same, will not stop until their ideology is destroyed, killing every single one of them and stopping for nothing to achieve this.
A good example of where ideology was a centre of gravity was hamburg. When we smashed hamburg, it was the first time the Nazi government but also the population realising it want all blitzkrieg, Poland and roses; it was also the start of the first plots,by German generals to lead a coup against the NazI leadership. http://ww2today.com/29th-july-1943-g...-hamburg-raids
The Russians got it in Chechnya,The French foreign legion got it in Algeria with very brutal treatment of the Islamist insurgency, the Israelis recently got it in Beirut and the Lebanon and until we start to learn to fight dirty, on their terms, we will continue to lose. I have taken part in two failed ops, partly down to a refusal to take off the gloves, they will not get we mean business until we start playing proper hardball.
What is happening to he Kurds in Northern Iraq is frankly disgusting. We should be fully behind them and not expecting ageing old women and female teenagers to be doing a job the international community should be doing, but isn't, properly.
Last edited by VinRouge; 8th Oct 2014 at 16:51.
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The Apache CRV 7 needs a boost motor cf the Harrier.
Last time I knew, they were looking to an anti-Nike version on the CRV 7. That is the trainer not the missile. It was a pure kinetic weapon dispensing 125mm long and 0.5mm diameter needle. Go through any soft material
Last time I knew, they were looking to an anti-Nike version on the CRV 7. That is the trainer not the missile. It was a pure kinetic weapon dispensing 125mm long and 0.5mm diameter needle. Go through any soft material
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Er, don't you have to make a lot of noise to get close enough to fire a gun?
I thought most of the point of laser-guided bombs et al was to target and release them before the enemy knows you're there. Strafing kinda gives the game away . . . or at least gives enough time for most of Mullah's mates to scamper off into civi street where they can't be touched.
I thought most of the point of laser-guided bombs et al was to target and release them before the enemy knows you're there. Strafing kinda gives the game away . . . or at least gives enough time for most of Mullah's mates to scamper off into civi street where they can't be touched.
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You ever been straffed?
Where I was standing we would hear the impacts before we heard the firing.
Where I was standing we would hear the impacts before we heard the firing.
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It's not the firing I'm talking about - it's the sound and sight of an aircraft approaching close enough to get its gun-sights in. Does any aircraft strafe at supersonic speeds? And in your case, were you expecting it/keeping an eye out for it as IS is?
Interesting to note the RAAF aborted a mission a couple of days ago because a target they were tracking in Iraq quickly moved into a civilian area - apparently aware there were aircraft in the vicinity. The Australian chief of defence noted IS had already started changing its tactics in response to recent air strikes.
RAAF fighter aborted air strike on Isis target to avoid killing civilians | Australia news | theguardian.com
Interesting to note the RAAF aborted a mission a couple of days ago because a target they were tracking in Iraq quickly moved into a civilian area - apparently aware there were aircraft in the vicinity. The Australian chief of defence noted IS had already started changing its tactics in response to recent air strikes.
RAAF fighter aborted air strike on Isis target to avoid killing civilians | Australia news | theguardian.com
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I take it if our fastjets got in range of their MANPADS our fastjet countermeasures are not good enough to overcome them? Or is it the case of we don't know and it's a risk not worth taking.
Last edited by Alister101; 8th Oct 2014 at 23:39.
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Isn't it a shame the wrong lot caught Ebola.
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VT, yes we were and we could not hear it. First the bang, then the firing.
Real spooky with the 'whoosh' after the bang.
Real spooky with the 'whoosh' after the bang.
Cunning Artificer
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What we need is some of what the Israelis have . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=pGS0A6zxgoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=pGS0A6zxgoc
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Type, you would need to see why we didn't fit a gun to the Typhoon and then why we did.
Of course the GR4 has a gun so . . .
Of course the GR4 has a gun so . . .
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Spooky?
'Spooky' Gunship Operations in the Vietnam War
Just for old times sake wondered if Spooky might fit the bill in Iraq?
Take a turbine powered DC3 as turned out even today in North America and install mini guns and other toys.
Train local pilots to orbit hot spots at night and use FLIR and low light cameras to target the bad guys.
Of course the bad guys can shoot back but at night I feel Spooky has the edge.
Just for old times sake wondered if Spooky might fit the bill in Iraq?
Take a turbine powered DC3 as turned out even today in North America and install mini guns and other toys.
Train local pilots to orbit hot spots at night and use FLIR and low light cameras to target the bad guys.
Of course the bad guys can shoot back but at night I feel Spooky has the edge.