Oops that's bad timing
Plenty but maybe Whenurhappy may wish to add to the downsides of an overseas lifestyle
And let's no even mention the considerable daily inconvenience of the changing security state - the awkward 7 point car checks in car parks; ensuring someone always stays with the car, the body armour and trauma kit in the boot 'just in case'; have neighbours and others wonder why our cars look an awful lot heavier than normal...the routine closing of the Mission due to threats, wiffs of tear gas on a regular basis, the constant risk of 'sharing' of our phone calls and emails with our, err, 'hosts'.
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 26th Oct 2014 at 07:58.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sussex By The Sea
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One thing that does worry me about the offer though - I'm not a volunteer and you would have thought there'd be plenty of volunteers for a couple of years in the States. That's the bit that worries me .... why does nobody else want it
Principally the fiscal and career costs of going abroad means that many just won't take the risk. As mentioned, in many locations spouses can't work, schooling is an issue (howsoever arranged - local schools, BFS, Boarding, DoDEA), quality of housing is very variable (although generally DIO do try), bonkers rules on allowances, BFPO...I could go on. But ultimately it falls in to the 'too difficult' tray for many.
I've been on a number of really interesting and wacky overseas posts but my career has stood still (happy with that) and the overall value of the package to make up for all the minor troubles has massively eroded (not happy with that). This is compounded by a generation of personnel across the RAF and the MOD with no experience of serving abroad apart from the perception that it's a doddle, involving a constant round of cocktail parties and little work...
Time to get the mess kit ready. Another do to go to...
I've been on a number of really interesting and wacky overseas posts but my career has stood still (happy with that) and the overall value of the package to make up for all the minor troubles has massively eroded (not happy with that). This is compounded by a generation of personnel across the RAF and the MOD with no experience of serving abroad apart from the perception that it's a doddle, involving a constant round of cocktail parties and little work...
Time to get the mess kit ready. Another do to go to...
Can't see the problem or the need for the carrot and stick.
Can't get bums on seats by asking for volunteers, post someone and tell them they are a volunteer.
They are in the Military, not the Boy Scouts.
Can't get bums on seats by asking for volunteers, post someone and tell them they are a volunteer.
They are in the Military, not the Boy Scouts.
No not confusing the RAF with anyone. The RAF I joined worked on a simple basis....
Your opinion was duly noted but if a decision was needed, the committee was dismissed and the Senior Rank made a decision.
Im glad you were not around when I served my 27 years. If you think the RAF are "convicted prisoners" because of a cut in LOA, you really would have been in a world of hurt.
Life in a blue suit, get on with it.
Your opinion was duly noted but if a decision was needed, the committee was dismissed and the Senior Rank made a decision.
Im glad you were not around when I served my 27 years. If you think the RAF are "convicted prisoners" because of a cut in LOA, you really would have been in a world of hurt.
Life in a blue suit, get on with it.
Things may have changed, but I suspect not.
The problem with the 'all stick' approach is that people get fed up and leave. Leadership, motivation and management cannot rely on the stick approach 365 days a year. If you have a retention and recruitment problem then the stick is counterproductive. This is especially true when families are involved.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or an ex-3 star, as your approach is common to both.
The problem with the 'all stick' approach is that people get fed up and leave. Leadership, motivation and management cannot rely on the stick approach 365 days a year. If you have a retention and recruitment problem then the stick is counterproductive. This is especially true when families are involved.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or an ex-3 star, as your approach is common to both.
The good old he disagrees, must be a troll.
I am far from stick, many will testify to that.
Want to have another go at replying to my post without dragging the debate into the gutter.
I am far from stick, many will testify to that.
Want to have another go at replying to my post without dragging the debate into the gutter.
Things may have changed, but I suspect not.
The problem with the 'all stick' approach is that people get fed up and leave. Leadership, motivation and management cannot rely on the stick approach 365 days a year. If you have a retention and recruitment problem then the stick is counterproductive. This is especially true when families are involved.
The problem with the 'all stick' approach is that people get fed up and leave. Leadership, motivation and management cannot rely on the stick approach 365 days a year. If you have a retention and recruitment problem then the stick is counterproductive. This is especially true when families are involved.
Thread Starter
I don't want to be treated any differently (better or worse) for serving abroad compared to those in the UK. Like it or not part of LOA is to compensate for a partners loss of earnings which in my situation is very relevant as my wife has tried for the last year to get a job here but to no avail and our families overall income has suffered as a result. As for the send them abroad whether they want to go or not brigade that might work for the singlies but not i would imagine for the majority of married personnel, I have to think about my wifes sanity and my children's education etc. In my case it was the right time to go abroad but at any other time it wouldn't have been and I would have pvr'd if pushed to go.
Thanks for all the replies, I hadn't intended to lob a grenade, it was a genuine question having been taken completely by surprise by the suggestion, but interesting to read the replies from both sides of the fence.
As alluded to, life in the 21st century RAF is a little more complex than some might remember, and I have to agree with JTO and Whenurhappy that for an organisation aspiring to attract AND retain the best, then outside of a wartime scenario 'you'll do what you're told and like it' really doesn't work and certainly isn't a school of leadership I subscribe to and wasn't how I operated during my command tour. It seemed to work for me as it's left me in what many would see as an enviable situation now. However, to add a little context:
Yes the RAF will still be paying me, so in that sense I won't be out of pocket. But how does cost of living work out overseas? Or is it just a given these days that you accept a reduced standard of living because of the difference in cost of living? A valid question I feel. A reduced standard of living due to higher costs and currency fluctuations working against ever reducing allowances could well leave individuals taking a hit financially to maintain standards. I guess it just depends on where you go and the specifics of the location but it's not much of a reward for a job well done, if that's what overseas job are and not something that families and loved ones have to put up with.
Also, whilst you are still getting paid, does the RAF pick up the bills associated with going overseas? And I don't mean moving and shipping, for which they do. I mean things like the costs of swapping mortgages from fixed term to buy to let because your bank won't let you rent your home out under the current terms? Does the RAF pick up the costs of unravelling car finance agreements that have time left to run on them and incur charges for early redemption? Those sorts of issues are a factor as much as cost of living and must be taken into consideration as much as LOA. Anybody that doesn't look across the board at all the financial implications may well find themselves out of pocket through unexpected costs. If they went into an overseas venture in the knowledge that should such costs arise they were either happy to or able to absorb them, then that's one thing. If they are suddenly surprised because they haven't considered all the angles, it could be an unwelcome but entirely avoidable surprise.
As for
Well it's great that people have been able to enjoy their time overseas, but not wanting an overseas tour shouldn't mark anyone out as being in the wrong job, it's why there used to be volunteer lists. For me personally, I would probably agree with you to an extent, otherwise why not go to the Civil Service for a more stable career. But 8 op tours in a decade is plenty of overseas time for now and is already a source of domestic discord, made even more complicated by elderly parents. And I don't think the prospect of a tax free car is enough of a sweetener on the domestic front!
Anyway, thanks for the replies, genuinely appreciated as I'm stuck out here with precious little than a flaky internet connection and only local IT systems with no access to the UK J1 chain. It's good to see PPrune is still capable of playing the role of Handbrake House when required.
As alluded to, life in the 21st century RAF is a little more complex than some might remember, and I have to agree with JTO and Whenurhappy that for an organisation aspiring to attract AND retain the best, then outside of a wartime scenario 'you'll do what you're told and like it' really doesn't work and certainly isn't a school of leadership I subscribe to and wasn't how I operated during my command tour. It seemed to work for me as it's left me in what many would see as an enviable situation now. However, to add a little context:
Yes the RAF will still be paying me, so in that sense I won't be out of pocket. But how does cost of living work out overseas? Or is it just a given these days that you accept a reduced standard of living because of the difference in cost of living? A valid question I feel. A reduced standard of living due to higher costs and currency fluctuations working against ever reducing allowances could well leave individuals taking a hit financially to maintain standards. I guess it just depends on where you go and the specifics of the location but it's not much of a reward for a job well done, if that's what overseas job are and not something that families and loved ones have to put up with.
Also, whilst you are still getting paid, does the RAF pick up the bills associated with going overseas? And I don't mean moving and shipping, for which they do. I mean things like the costs of swapping mortgages from fixed term to buy to let because your bank won't let you rent your home out under the current terms? Does the RAF pick up the costs of unravelling car finance agreements that have time left to run on them and incur charges for early redemption? Those sorts of issues are a factor as much as cost of living and must be taken into consideration as much as LOA. Anybody that doesn't look across the board at all the financial implications may well find themselves out of pocket through unexpected costs. If they went into an overseas venture in the knowledge that should such costs arise they were either happy to or able to absorb them, then that's one thing. If they are suddenly surprised because they haven't considered all the angles, it could be an unwelcome but entirely avoidable surprise.
As for
Anyone who doesn't want an overseas tour should seriously think about why they joined the Service and perhaps think about a career change
Anyway, thanks for the replies, genuinely appreciated as I'm stuck out here with precious little than a flaky internet connection and only local IT systems with no access to the UK J1 chain. It's good to see PPrune is still capable of playing the role of Handbrake House when required.
Last edited by Melchett01; 26th Oct 2014 at 18:20.
Yes the RAF will still be paying me, so in that sense I won't be out of pocket. But how does cost of living work out overseas? Or is it just a given these days that you accept a reduced standard of living because of the difference in cost of living? A valid question I feel. A reduced standard of living due to higher costs and currency fluctuations working against ever reducing allowances could well leave individuals taking a hit financially to maintain standards. I guess it just depends on where you go and the specifics of the location but it's not much of a reward for a job well done, if that's what overseas job are and not something that families and loved ones have to put up with.
Also, whilst you are still getting paid, does the RAF pick up the bills associated with going overseas? And I don't mean moving and shipping, for which they do. I mean things like the costs of swapping mortgages from fixed term to buy to let because your bank won't let you rent your home out under the current terms? Does the RAF pick up the costs of unravelling car finance agreements that have time left to run on them and incur charges for early redemption? Those sorts of issues are a factor as much as cost of living and must be taken into consideration as much as LOA. Anybody that doesn't look across the board at all the financial implications may well find themselves out of pocket through unexpected costs. If they went into an overseas venture in the knowledge that should such costs arise they were either happy to or able to absorb them, then that's one thing. If they are suddenly surprised because they haven't considered all the angles, it could be an unwelcome but entirely avoidable surprise.
Also, whilst you are still getting paid, does the RAF pick up the bills associated with going overseas? And I don't mean moving and shipping, for which they do. I mean things like the costs of swapping mortgages from fixed term to buy to let because your bank won't let you rent your home out under the current terms? Does the RAF pick up the costs of unravelling car finance agreements that have time left to run on them and incur charges for early redemption? Those sorts of issues are a factor as much as cost of living and must be taken into consideration as much as LOA. Anybody that doesn't look across the board at all the financial implications may well find themselves out of pocket through unexpected costs. If they went into an overseas venture in the knowledge that should such costs arise they were either happy to or able to absorb them, then that's one thing. If they are suddenly surprised because they haven't considered all the angles, it could be an unwelcome but entirely avoidable surprise.
In terms of mortgage change charges, it could be argued that this is within the Disturbance Allowance/Grant/whatever it has been renamed. However, I think that you could make a case to PACC to highlight the costs incurred, but I would imagine that they will respond by saying that the Service is not obliging you to rent your property. I encountered same problems several times in the past and speaking with the Lender eventually resolved the matter (yes, I had to get a bit shouty). Car finance charges - hmmm, I feel that there could be a stronger case to support this, especially if you are posted somewhere where it is not practical to take your car or (as is probably the case) the finance company may not allow you to do so. However, such costs may be expected to be covered by LOA - for example, German LOA does include an element, IIRC, for headlight conversion and winter tyres. (ps: if you are going to Germany, use Halford stick-on converters. I used them happily for three years and passed the rigorous TUV tests (MOT) with them)
The biggy, though, is loss of spousal earnings. LOA is not designed to replace these, although most of us have taken this in to consideration, but didn't expect such swinging cuts over the last 4 years. If you have kids in Boarding school and want to see them more than 3 x a year, additional flights become v pricey at half-term, etc. Also too, you will spend more on travel and tourism than a UK tour; expect to meet all manner of friends and rellies at the local airport if you are in a picturesque or popular location!
feel free to PM me - I can prolly give you more targeted info.
