Putin threatens NATO & EU ?
Nope.
I was involved in some work with former Eastern Bloc nations (Ukraine, Romania, Hungary mostly) and their military folks, during the 90's in the NATO "Partnership for Peace" era of the cold war thawout. 15-20 years ago. The consistent theme I ran across went something like this:
The nations involved wanted into the NATO relationships for a lot of reasons, the main one of them being financial, the other main one being fear/wariness of the Russians. There were other reasons as well, to do more with EU and European relationships than anything to do with the US of A. We had a little bit of PfP work with a few Russian teams, but I didn't get as involved with them as some of my colleagues did on other projects. There was a Russian liaison office established in Brussels, IIRC at NATO HQ, during the late 90's.
The intent was there for a closer working relationship, not a further estrangement.
As an American, I was against NATO expansion. Hell, I am for bringing our troops home from Europe, and was back then.
It was enough of a chore to fold in Spain, once Spain they decided to be "all in!" (Truth here: I was glad when Sarkozy got France to finally be "all in!" instead of "sort of in" NATO after DeGaulletossed his toys out of the pram in the 60's).
Ronald, in the nations that spent 40-50 years in the Soviet/Russian sphere, the experience taught a lot of people a lot of things about the Russians.
It seems "trust" isn't one of them.
Sad but true. I don't think it has to be that way, and I do wish it were otherwise.
I was involved in some work with former Eastern Bloc nations (Ukraine, Romania, Hungary mostly) and their military folks, during the 90's in the NATO "Partnership for Peace" era of the cold war thawout. 15-20 years ago. The consistent theme I ran across went something like this:
The nations involved wanted into the NATO relationships for a lot of reasons, the main one of them being financial, the other main one being fear/wariness of the Russians. There were other reasons as well, to do more with EU and European relationships than anything to do with the US of A. We had a little bit of PfP work with a few Russian teams, but I didn't get as involved with them as some of my colleagues did on other projects. There was a Russian liaison office established in Brussels, IIRC at NATO HQ, during the late 90's.
The intent was there for a closer working relationship, not a further estrangement.
As an American, I was against NATO expansion. Hell, I am for bringing our troops home from Europe, and was back then.
It was enough of a chore to fold in Spain, once Spain they decided to be "all in!" (Truth here: I was glad when Sarkozy got France to finally be "all in!" instead of "sort of in" NATO after DeGaulletossed his toys out of the pram in the 60's).
Ronald, in the nations that spent 40-50 years in the Soviet/Russian sphere, the experience taught a lot of people a lot of things about the Russians.
It seems "trust" isn't one of them.
Sad but true. I don't think it has to be that way, and I do wish it were otherwise.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Russia seeks to court western favour by restarting energy supplies to Ukraine? Interest rates soar to 9.5% on back of weak rouble.
BBC News - Russia raises interest rates to 9.5%
BBC News - Russia raises interest rates to 9.5%
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'NATO bombers and combat aircraft were intercepted as they flew along the coast of Russia', no credible news source said, ever.
During the cold war, US (and other nations') military aircraft of many types were routinely intercepted along the borders of Russia. Some were shot down. A few of the shootdowns turned out to be off-course civilian airliners.
During the cold war, US (and other nations') military aircraft of many types were routinely intercepted along the borders of Russia. Some were shot down. A few of the shootdowns turned out to be off-course civilian airliners.
During the cold war...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This discussion is making me feel all nostalgic
Kim Il Sung´s Africa and Europe visit 1975 - YouTube
kim il sung - YouTube
Tribute to Marshal Tito - YouTube
ANTHEM EAST GERMAN (DDR) 1989 / HIMNO DE ALEMANIA DEMOCRATICA (RDA) - YouTube
Die Internationale - DDR Ost Berlin 1986 , Parade der Arbeiterkampfgruppen - YouTube
Tribute to president Ceausescu - YouTube
PRL 1984 Kim Ir Sen w Polsce. Po?egnanie drogiego go?cia - YouTube
Kim Il Sung´s Africa and Europe visit 1975 - YouTube
kim il sung - YouTube
Tribute to Marshal Tito - YouTube
ANTHEM EAST GERMAN (DDR) 1989 / HIMNO DE ALEMANIA DEMOCRATICA (RDA) - YouTube
Die Internationale - DDR Ost Berlin 1986 , Parade der Arbeiterkampfgruppen - YouTube
Tribute to president Ceausescu - YouTube
PRL 1984 Kim Ir Sen w Polsce. Po?egnanie drogiego go?cia - YouTube
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You said it KenV - during the Cold War, not 2014. And as for civilian airliners being shot down, sadly not much has changed there either.
Comparing a fellow socialist regime intent on taking over the world and NATO, isn't relevant.
F#$k, its almost impossible to get them to agree on anything thats a threat and take action. probability of NATO invading Russia, 1 in infinity. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs help. Probability of NATO taking action against Russia if (not saying they would) it commits genocide amongst a portion of its population 1 infinity.
Look at the Ukraine situation, they could legally go in at the invitation of the government. But what are they getting, meals and uniforms, NATO a threat to Russia, what a F$#king joke, how stupid you people must think we are.
Look at the Ukraine situation, they could legally go in at the invitation of the government. But what are they getting, meals and uniforms, NATO a threat to Russia, what a F$#king joke, how stupid you people must think we are.
History does that to a people, look at German attitude to INFLATION, Japanese peoples attitude to its military doing anything outside its shores, Chinese attitude to Japanese military or anybody else on it borders, Israels attitude to ANY attack on Jewish people, UK/French attitude to Germany having a strong military, US attitude to Russian nukes on Cuba............... Russian attitude to what it sees on its border is no different.
Its the intent that is seen as threatening because even when person making it has no malicious intent the person following may have a different viewpoint.
Russia had a declaration from a US President that NATO would not expand eastwards, next President then does the complete opposite, would you then trust the words of a US President ?
I have heard the semantics that as it wasn't in a treaty then you cannot rely on it.
In which case the interpretation of Russia is that the US President stating something as CiC of the US to Russian President only applies when he is in office...........in which case Russia automatically disregard his word and commitment because next incumbent is not bound by it and can ignore it.
Its not a place US and Russia should even be.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"100 years ago Russia would not have thought it would be invaded twice and millions killed"
Actually they did - they remembered the Napoleonic War , and the Crimean War and the Japanese War
They were allied with the French to try and ensure no war broke out in Europe and when Bismark ran things they were allied with the Germans
Actually they did - they remembered the Napoleonic War , and the Crimean War and the Japanese War
They were allied with the French to try and ensure no war broke out in Europe and when Bismark ran things they were allied with the Germans
Lone Wolf - I concur fully with your comments. About 12 years ago I too was a lowly minion dealing with accession issues in NATO. In my trips around former WARPAC Countries there were two recurrent themes:
- NATO will keep the Russians Out, and,
- This will bring us closer to joining the EU (in fact, you couldn't slip a cheap cigarette paper between NATO & EU).
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
About the Russian economy and reserves...
Are Russia’s Usable Reserves Running Dangerously Low?
........
Are Russia’s Usable Reserves Running Dangerously Low?
........
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,868
Received 2,816 Likes
on
1,200 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,868
Received 2,816 Likes
on
1,200 Posts
About the Russian economy and reserves...
Are Russia’s Usable Reserves Running Dangerously Low?
........
Are Russia’s Usable Reserves Running Dangerously Low?
........
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After the National Wealth Fund has sapped state pension contributions for two years, why wouldn't Rozneft tap it up for $50 billions? If there's no backlash soon.. there will be in a few years.
Former Russian Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin Warns Putin Over 'Populist' Policies
And this puts HS2 through Dudley into context. Russia wants to reach out and this is the sort of stuff we'd read about 40 years ago as a fantastical aspiration, but at $150 billions where's the money really going to come from?
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/busine...ay/511644.html
Former Russian Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin Warns Putin Over 'Populist' Policies
And this puts HS2 through Dudley into context. Russia wants to reach out and this is the sort of stuff we'd read about 40 years ago as a fantastical aspiration, but at $150 billions where's the money really going to come from?
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/busine...ay/511644.html
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Same point made in The Economist this week, cover, leader and long article inside. Leader and article links below.
Russia - A wounded economy - It is closer to crisis than the West or Vladimir Putin realise
The Russian Economy -The end of the line - For more than a decade oil income and consumer spending have delivered growth to Vladimir Putin’s Russia. Not any more
Russia - A wounded economy - It is closer to crisis than the West or Vladimir Putin realise
The Russian Economy -The end of the line - For more than a decade oil income and consumer spending have delivered growth to Vladimir Putin’s Russia. Not any more
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Capital controls feared as Russian rouble collapses
The Russian rouble has suffered its steepest one-day drop since the default crisis in 1998 as capital flight accelerates, raising the risk of emergency exchange controls and tightening the noose on Russian companies and bodies with more than $680bn (£432bn) of external debt.
The currency has been in freefall since Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states vetoed calls by weaker Opec members for a cut in crude oil output, a move viewed by the Kremlin as a strategic attack on Russia. A fresh plunge in Brent prices to a five-year low of $67.50 a barrel on Monday caused the dam to break, triggering a 9pc slide in the rouble in a matter of hours. Analysts said it took huge intervention by the Russian central bank to stop the rout and stablize the rouble at 52.07 to the dollar. “They must have spent billions,” said Tim Ash, at Standard Bank.
It is extremely rare for a major country to collapse in this fashion, and the trauma is likely to have political consequences. "This has become disorderly. There are no real buyers of the rouble. We know that voices close to president Vladimir Putin want capital controls, and we cannot rule this out," said Lars Christensen, at Danske Bank. "Funding problems are increasing dramatically. We think Russia is now flirting with systemic problems,” he added.
Some Russian banks have already started limiting withdrawals of dollars and euros to $10,000, an implicit lockdown for big depositors..........
The rouble's slide has led to fury in the Duma, where populist politician Evgeny Fedorov has called for a criminal investigation of the central bank. Critics say the institution had been taken over by "feminist liberals" and is a tool of the International Monetary Fund. The office of the Russia general prosecutor said on Monday it was opening a probe.
The central bank has refused to intervene to defend the rouble over recent weeks, letting the exchange rate take the strain rather than burning through reserves to delay the inevitable, as Nigeria and Kazakhstan are doing. It squandered $200bn of reserves in a six-week period in late 2008 and triggered an acute banking crisis, learning the hard way that currency intervention entails monetary tightening. By letting the rouble fall, it shields the Russian budget from the slump in global oil prices, though not entirely. Deutsche Bank said the fiscal balance turns negative at crude prices below $70.
Yet the devaluation is causing prices to spiral upwards in the shops and may at some point cause a self-feeding crisis if it evokes bitter memories of past currencies crashes. The finance ministry said it expects inflation to reach 10pc in the first quarter of 2015. There is already a dash to buy washing machines, cars and computers before they shoot up in price, a shift in behaviour that signals stress.
The rouble slide is ratcheting up the pressure on Russian companies facing $35bn of redemptions of foreign debt in December alone, mostly in dollars. Yields on Lukoil’s 10-year bonds have jumped by 250 basis points since June to 7.5pc.
The Russian rouble has suffered its steepest one-day drop since the default crisis in 1998 as capital flight accelerates, raising the risk of emergency exchange controls and tightening the noose on Russian companies and bodies with more than $680bn (£432bn) of external debt.
The currency has been in freefall since Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states vetoed calls by weaker Opec members for a cut in crude oil output, a move viewed by the Kremlin as a strategic attack on Russia. A fresh plunge in Brent prices to a five-year low of $67.50 a barrel on Monday caused the dam to break, triggering a 9pc slide in the rouble in a matter of hours. Analysts said it took huge intervention by the Russian central bank to stop the rout and stablize the rouble at 52.07 to the dollar. “They must have spent billions,” said Tim Ash, at Standard Bank.
It is extremely rare for a major country to collapse in this fashion, and the trauma is likely to have political consequences. "This has become disorderly. There are no real buyers of the rouble. We know that voices close to president Vladimir Putin want capital controls, and we cannot rule this out," said Lars Christensen, at Danske Bank. "Funding problems are increasing dramatically. We think Russia is now flirting with systemic problems,” he added.
Some Russian banks have already started limiting withdrawals of dollars and euros to $10,000, an implicit lockdown for big depositors..........
The rouble's slide has led to fury in the Duma, where populist politician Evgeny Fedorov has called for a criminal investigation of the central bank. Critics say the institution had been taken over by "feminist liberals" and is a tool of the International Monetary Fund. The office of the Russia general prosecutor said on Monday it was opening a probe.
The central bank has refused to intervene to defend the rouble over recent weeks, letting the exchange rate take the strain rather than burning through reserves to delay the inevitable, as Nigeria and Kazakhstan are doing. It squandered $200bn of reserves in a six-week period in late 2008 and triggered an acute banking crisis, learning the hard way that currency intervention entails monetary tightening. By letting the rouble fall, it shields the Russian budget from the slump in global oil prices, though not entirely. Deutsche Bank said the fiscal balance turns negative at crude prices below $70.
Yet the devaluation is causing prices to spiral upwards in the shops and may at some point cause a self-feeding crisis if it evokes bitter memories of past currencies crashes. The finance ministry said it expects inflation to reach 10pc in the first quarter of 2015. There is already a dash to buy washing machines, cars and computers before they shoot up in price, a shift in behaviour that signals stress.
The rouble slide is ratcheting up the pressure on Russian companies facing $35bn of redemptions of foreign debt in December alone, mostly in dollars. Yields on Lukoil’s 10-year bonds have jumped by 250 basis points since June to 7.5pc.
Yet the devaluation is causing prices to spiral upwards in the shops and may at some point cause a self-feeding crisis if it evokes bitter memories of past currencies crashes. The finance ministry said it expects inflation to reach 10pc in the first quarter of 2015. There is already a dash to buy washing machines, cars and computers before they shoot up in price, a shift in behaviour that signals stress.
The rouble slide is ratcheting up the pressure on Russian companies facing $35bn of redemptions of foreign debt in December alone, mostly in dollars. Yields on Lukoil’s 10-year bonds have jumped by 250 basis points since June to 7.5pc.
The rouble slide is ratcheting up the pressure on Russian companies facing $35bn of redemptions of foreign debt in December alone, mostly in dollars. Yields on Lukoil’s 10-year bonds have jumped by 250 basis points since June to 7.5pc.
Perhaps its worth remembering 2009-2010 when western economies pretty much went nowhere as consumers stopped all spending.
The new TV's / Washing Machines / Cars / Kitchens that I knew friends were buying over a period of time and discussing completely stopped as nobody was buying. Ensuring food on table and house warm was a bigger issue than new LCD 50inch tV or whatever
Western Govts came up with another Ponzi scheme called TARP / QE where money they didn't have, magically appeared to buy assets worth little to get economies moving. Nobody knows how it will be paid back.
Relatively easy to stop consumer spending as people will just do it and Govts stop spending.
Yup in Russia Western stuff will be dear but lets face it what western consumer goods are not made in China ? and as for Western cars................ the factorys are already in Russia so who loses ? their western owners as their investment is worthless as nobody buying their cars or the Russians buying home produced stuff ?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The scribbly is looking at it from a western perspective because that's what Russia has evolved into, or at least, is trying to. We know where Putin is drawing his war chest from..
?????? ?????? :: 2014
Those figures are scant, the additional danger is that the fund has been buying Russian institution and bank instruments which are hurtling South too, and recently, more natural resource debt was added to the shopping trolley. That has a plummeting value. His shopping trolley has been changed; no longer one of those lithe ones, now he has swapped it for a deep weekly shop jobber. The wheels are groaning under the weight of all the stuff being chucked into it, I think there was another $10 billions last week.
TASS: Economy - Russian Finance Ministry to buy VTB, Rosselkhozbank shares worth $6.6 billion
He is doing what we did (say, supporting Northern Rock) but he is doing it on a grand scale. We did it by creating money (I agree, we just kicked the problem to the right) but he is taking hard cash from future pensioners. The problem is, our destinies are all linked now - his czarist pretensions become our economic malaise. The worrying thing for Russia (and us) is, sentiment turned away from Russia long before this happened, God know what it's going to be like after it has all (hopefully) been resolved.
http://www.trustnet.com/Factsheets/F...e=HXF56&univ=T
On the plus side, fewer Russians in the pool bar maybe. ;-)
?????? ?????? :: 2014
Those figures are scant, the additional danger is that the fund has been buying Russian institution and bank instruments which are hurtling South too, and recently, more natural resource debt was added to the shopping trolley. That has a plummeting value. His shopping trolley has been changed; no longer one of those lithe ones, now he has swapped it for a deep weekly shop jobber. The wheels are groaning under the weight of all the stuff being chucked into it, I think there was another $10 billions last week.
TASS: Economy - Russian Finance Ministry to buy VTB, Rosselkhozbank shares worth $6.6 billion
He is doing what we did (say, supporting Northern Rock) but he is doing it on a grand scale. We did it by creating money (I agree, we just kicked the problem to the right) but he is taking hard cash from future pensioners. The problem is, our destinies are all linked now - his czarist pretensions become our economic malaise. The worrying thing for Russia (and us) is, sentiment turned away from Russia long before this happened, God know what it's going to be like after it has all (hopefully) been resolved.
http://www.trustnet.com/Factsheets/F...e=HXF56&univ=T
On the plus side, fewer Russians in the pool bar maybe. ;-)
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PS:
Heard the one about Putin, oil and the ruble? They will all hit 63 next year.
PPS:
Judging from this press release from earlier today, you asked how we repay our debt. Well, at least we repay it.. eventually.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/c...world-war-debt
Heard the one about Putin, oil and the ruble? They will all hit 63 next year.
PPS:
Judging from this press release from earlier today, you asked how we repay our debt. Well, at least we repay it.. eventually.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/c...world-war-debt