Foxbat
Next question to be asked is, when Viktor Belyenko or Belenko (?) defected with his Mig 25 to Japan in 75, he subsequently ended up as an adviser / instructor for the US Navy - in particular the then Top Gun school at Miramar , did anyone from Strike Command or the BDS-USA had the pleasure of chatting to him in the years that followed?
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First, as an interceptor, if the Foxbat behaved like Concorde or SR71, then it would be low possibility. As a fighter, with good GCI assistance, no contest.
The point is that the Foxbat was an interceptor designed to intercept the B70.
As bombers I don't think either were particularly effective.
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It might be a variant I'm unaware of, but I never thought of it as a Fighter, more a fast missile platform...(armchair expert here of course...). Did they ever fit guns to it?
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when Viktor Belyenko or Belenko (?) defected with his Mig 25 to Japan in 75,
They've Got Cliff, We've Got The Foxbat. At That Rate Of Exchange Let's Send 'em Jethro Tull And We Can Disband NATO.
I think you're living in the past with that one A.b.
Not too many answers so far tonight. On balance, given the difference in technology, the Foxbat should win every time. However, in the day, there would have been a big difference between the modi operandi of the pilots. Take both out of their comfort zone and the WIWOL may well have tipped the balance to some extent.
If you're just talking platforms, it's the MiG. Sorry.
If you're just talking platforms, it's the MiG. Sorry.
Evertonian
Getting all "technical" for a moment, but what would you classify as a head to head encounter? (mano o mano)
If it's a stand off with missiles, the Mig has between four & six shots at you from distance, unsure of the max loadout for the Lightening. In which case, we could throw a 737 into the mix...http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../0/2155037.jpg
In my mind, if you were comparing them in a fight, I would imagine it being a dog fight...with guns...
Sorry, go easy on me, armchair expert & all...and yes, I know they're Harpoons on the 737.
If it's a stand off with missiles, the Mig has between four & six shots at you from distance, unsure of the max loadout for the Lightening. In which case, we could throw a 737 into the mix...http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../0/2155037.jpg
In my mind, if you were comparing them in a fight, I would imagine it being a dog fight...with guns...
Sorry, go easy on me, armchair expert & all...and yes, I know they're Harpoons on the 737.
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I thing the Lightning role counterpart variant would be the MiG-25P, and by their nature there would never be an encounter between them. Maybe with an RB. No guns on either, I think. R-40RT/TD missile was a bit of a monster but on an airframe like the 25RB I'd rather have R-40 than R-60: the latter would commit the plane to a dogfight it couldn't dominate. Also, R-60 entry was past Lightning's end-of-life, I think.
But in a synthetic Lightning vs MiG-25P fight with both starting either on the ground or at altitude beyond detection range, and the same pilot in both cockpits, I'd go with the -25P.
But in a synthetic Lightning vs MiG-25P fight with both starting either on the ground or at altitude beyond detection range, and the same pilot in both cockpits, I'd go with the -25P.
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Tricky, but not impossible, given enough warning. Would require a hefty zoom climb to drag the Foxbat within Skytrash snapup capability, which in turn would leave one vulnerable to Acrid, assuming good snapdown capability.
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The point is that both aircraft needed GCI assistance. I know one day the Mig 25 missed the first intercept as it was too slow launching. On its second attempt later in the day it was assessed as successful. In the recovery it violated Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and West German airspace.
Manoeuvres? Like a rocket.
On a 180 or 90 the Foxbat would win. On speed it would get out of jail, but if it missed on the intercept then the Lightning would not lose. If it came down to play I think the Lightning would win.
Manoeuvres? Like a rocket.
On a 180 or 90 the Foxbat would win. On speed it would get out of jail, but if it missed on the intercept then the Lightning would not lose. If it came down to play I think the Lightning would win.
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I can't get the picture out of my head of Lightning going "head to head" with a Foxbat - combined closing speed M 4.5+
One bullet and then both of you are about 100 miles apart.....................
One bullet and then both of you are about 100 miles apart.....................
Ok how about its two seat derivative, the MIG-31 Foxhound then? I suspect (he says referring to his last century aerodynamic lecture notes from uni ) that the Mig 31 had slightly less performance due to the additional weight of a second seat and additional systems.
And as Barnstormer states, with the F.3, so in this case how would the F.3 fare against the Foxhound or for that matter the F-4J/K ,
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And as Barnstormer states, with the F.3, so in this case how would the F.3 fare against the Foxhound or for that matter the F-4J/K ,
Cheers
I flew the simulator profile of an F3 vs FOXBAT at 65-70Kft at M2.5+ lots and lots of times and also instructed it as well. As the jet or its Skyflash are no longer in service then I'll happily explain my experiences. The F3 would go to 50Kft at M1.3+ without too much difficulty at all, it would even go higher (I know! 
) but we didn't have the AEA to support us above 50Kft if we had to 'step outside' or if the pressurisation failed (above 50Kft you will suffer the 'bends' and even higher, due to the lower pressure, your blood will probably boil! 
). Anyway, you would accelerate at the tropopause to M1.2 when the intake ramps would kick in and then you could continue to accelerate and climb keeping the FOXBAT as close to 'beak to beak' as possible - depending on the type of Skyflash the snap up was around 20-30kft and you would look to get a rocket off as close to the top of the Launch Success Zone (LSZ) as possible and then at least 1-2 more before getting anywhere near the LSZ for an ACRID (backing it up with a Sidewinder or ASRAAM as you got really close!). As your combined speed of closure was around 40 miles a minute then it was all over pretty quick! A stern conversion was not an option against a M2.5+ FOXBAT as my personal best was just shy of M2.2 in the F3 - also at max combat you were pushing fuel through the engines so fast that even with full internal tanks you had ~10 minutes until they ran dry!!!
I hope that helps?
LJ
) but we didn't have the AEA to support us above 50Kft if we had to 'step outside' or if the pressurisation failed (above 50Kft you will suffer the 'bends' and even higher, due to the lower pressure, your blood will probably boil! ). Anyway, you would accelerate at the tropopause to M1.2 when the intake ramps would kick in and then you could continue to accelerate and climb keeping the FOXBAT as close to 'beak to beak' as possible - depending on the type of Skyflash the snap up was around 20-30kft and you would look to get a rocket off as close to the top of the Launch Success Zone (LSZ) as possible and then at least 1-2 more before getting anywhere near the LSZ for an ACRID (backing it up with a Sidewinder or ASRAAM as you got really close!). As your combined speed of closure was around 40 miles a minute then it was all over pretty quick! A stern conversion was not an option against a M2.5+ FOXBAT as my personal best was just shy of M2.2 in the F3 - also at max combat you were pushing fuel through the engines so fast that even with full internal tanks you had ~10 minutes until they ran dry!!!I hope that helps?
LJ
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I had read somewhere, can't remember where exactly, that the Foxbat could (and did??) overfly UK airspace at such height and speed that nothing could get near it (presumably the recce version).
Well the only UK asset that might have got up there was the Lightning. Although the Lightning's performance was impressive its weapons system was, by the 1980s, practically steam driven.
The Foxbat however, had enormous power designed as it was to shoot down Mach-3 bombers, and very powerful radar. So I suppose the fighter version would "see" the Lightning at greater range getting in first with the huge Acrid AAMs before heading away at anything up to Mach 3??
What if we had developed some the aircraft that aviation genius Dummkopf Sands said we wouldn't need because, oh, you know the story.....
Lightning/Foxbat. Two Cold War icons. I salute them both.
Well the only UK asset that might have got up there was the Lightning. Although the Lightning's performance was impressive its weapons system was, by the 1980s, practically steam driven.
The Foxbat however, had enormous power designed as it was to shoot down Mach-3 bombers, and very powerful radar. So I suppose the fighter version would "see" the Lightning at greater range getting in first with the huge Acrid AAMs before heading away at anything up to Mach 3??
What if we had developed some the aircraft that aviation genius Dummkopf Sands said we wouldn't need because, oh, you know the story.....
Lightning/Foxbat. Two Cold War icons. I salute them both.
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JTO, that sounds like a recipe for losing a few jets with the Foxbat not firing even one missile.
On Foxbat/Foxhound, we were not too worried about the Foxbat but Foxhound was a different matter.
Ditto Fishpot and Flaggon cf Firebar.
On Foxbat/Foxhound, we were not too worried about the Foxbat but Foxhound was a different matter.
Ditto Fishpot and Flaggon cf Firebar.