Who needs a Captain's course at OCU
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Who needs a Captain's course at OCU
Often wondered how the truckie fleet (and others I guess) justified sending pilots on a 6 month course to become right hand seat qualified, then put them back though the OCU a couple of years later to become left hand seat qualified. In the maritime world pilots left the OCU both left and right hand seat qualified and were appointed to captaincy on the squadron and on merit, in competition of course with rear crew members. Any thoughts - were those selected for maritime better pilots, the cream of the crop perhaps?
This topic has been thrashed to death many times. Really it's down to the aircraft design - if you can do everything from either seat, it would be pointless training pilots to fly from both seats. For example, the only thing you couldn't do in the RHS of the VC10 was operate the weather radar. Whereas in other aircraft, n-w steering wasn't available to the RH occupant.
The co-cap course on the VC10 was rather more than a LHS conversion - and only took a couple of weeks. I did mine in Aug 1986 - 2 sims and 3 trips, then a 'crew solo' after which I was off with a cold for a week before finishing off the last 3 trips which included receiver training. A total of 8 working days, so hardly a 6 month course.
As for 'cream of the crop', hardly so. Pilots were streamed according to preference for role and available slots.
Half-wing 'captains' - I'm firmly in the 'no stick, no vote' camp. A friend of mine was co-pilot on a Nimrod on a miserable night trying to get back into Kinloss. After the first pilot had overshot twice at DH, a voice from some half-wing 'captain' piped up "Can't you go a bit lower next time?". The first pilot handed over control to the co-pilot, unstrapped, went down the back and said to the so-called 'captain' "Tell you what, you can fly the next one... !"
They diverted. That, plus the idiotic press-on-itis decision making I witnessed by some 'AEO captain' at ASI made me thankful that we didn't have such nonsense in the AAR world.
The co-cap course on the VC10 was rather more than a LHS conversion - and only took a couple of weeks. I did mine in Aug 1986 - 2 sims and 3 trips, then a 'crew solo' after which I was off with a cold for a week before finishing off the last 3 trips which included receiver training. A total of 8 working days, so hardly a 6 month course.
As for 'cream of the crop', hardly so. Pilots were streamed according to preference for role and available slots.
Half-wing 'captains' - I'm firmly in the 'no stick, no vote' camp. A friend of mine was co-pilot on a Nimrod on a miserable night trying to get back into Kinloss. After the first pilot had overshot twice at DH, a voice from some half-wing 'captain' piped up "Can't you go a bit lower next time?". The first pilot handed over control to the co-pilot, unstrapped, went down the back and said to the so-called 'captain' "Tell you what, you can fly the next one... !"
They diverted. That, plus the idiotic press-on-itis decision making I witnessed by some 'AEO captain' at ASI made me thankful that we didn't have such nonsense in the AAR world.
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Nimbev,
Not sure which current fleet you're specifically referring to but not all do require that long a conversion.
The C17 at least fly from both seats from Day 1 as a co-pilot so any 'seat conversion' is non-existent. The captain's course consists of a short series of sims and sectors to confirm/train the management and supervisory elements - far from 6 months as it used to be in legacy fleets.
This is all after the Captains' board has confirmed suitability.
Can't vouch for all but seems pretty painless to me in that example at least.
As Beags said, I'm not entirely convinced by the Kipper fillet model either.
Not sure which current fleet you're specifically referring to but not all do require that long a conversion.
The C17 at least fly from both seats from Day 1 as a co-pilot so any 'seat conversion' is non-existent. The captain's course consists of a short series of sims and sectors to confirm/train the management and supervisory elements - far from 6 months as it used to be in legacy fleets.
This is all after the Captains' board has confirmed suitability.
Can't vouch for all but seems pretty painless to me in that example at least.
As Beags said, I'm not entirely convinced by the Kipper fillet model either.
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 2nd Sep 2014 at 06:10.
nimbev,
on the Herc it was known as the 'nosewheel steering course' as only the L/H seat had access to the nosewheel steering. In the early days they would take experienced pilots from other a/c, roles etc and put them straight in as trainee captains. After a few failures this was largely abandoned and almost all did a co tour first.
on the Herc it was known as the 'nosewheel steering course' as only the L/H seat had access to the nosewheel steering. In the early days they would take experienced pilots from other a/c, roles etc and put them straight in as trainee captains. After a few failures this was largely abandoned and almost all did a co tour first.
With a few exceptions, the Nimrod MR model of having 'half-wing' captains was generally very successful, although certainly unique for an RAF aircraft. The role was more akin to the captain of a ship (or even the captain of a rugby team), rather than based on pure piloting skills.
In general terms, the ASW and ASuW mission sets were sufficiently complex for first tourists to spend their whole time getting to grips with, meaning that co-pilots and second navs would do at least 2-3 years before promotion to P1 or N1, followed by at least another year before consideration for captaincy. Captains were therefore selected on an ability to lead a 13 person team, a solid grounding in the tactical employment of the aircraft and a proven level of maturity. Most maritime squadrons had a 33% mix between pilots, navs and AEO's as captains.
Whilst all of the crew would be focussed on flight safety, the captains main challenge was to ensure the crew could achieve the mission. At all times, the P1 had full responsibility for everything connected with the flight deck and would be allowed to get on with it. For things like red card drills, the flight deck would carry out the appropriate actions keeping the crew informed whilst doing so. Any sensible 'half wing' captain would defer completely to the P1 when airmanship suggested it was logical to do so. For events that had a few options open to the crew, these would be debated and ultimately, the captain would make the decision based on the previous discussions of experienced crew members.
By allowing the P1 to have exclusive rights over the flight deck, many of the best captains came from the 'half wing' fraternity because they totally understood the mission requirements and tactical employment of the aircraft. Conversely, some of the less impressive captains were P1's who tried to interfere with how the aircraft was operated down the back without having a thorough grasp of what was going on. Interestingly, a few crews had flying officer captains with a squadron leader P1 to contend with.
Having said that, I suspect that any future MPA/MMA will resort to P1 captains and rear crew mission commanders. Like many other elements of the RAF, 'half wing' captains are likely to be a historical memory from the past.
In general terms, the ASW and ASuW mission sets were sufficiently complex for first tourists to spend their whole time getting to grips with, meaning that co-pilots and second navs would do at least 2-3 years before promotion to P1 or N1, followed by at least another year before consideration for captaincy. Captains were therefore selected on an ability to lead a 13 person team, a solid grounding in the tactical employment of the aircraft and a proven level of maturity. Most maritime squadrons had a 33% mix between pilots, navs and AEO's as captains.
Whilst all of the crew would be focussed on flight safety, the captains main challenge was to ensure the crew could achieve the mission. At all times, the P1 had full responsibility for everything connected with the flight deck and would be allowed to get on with it. For things like red card drills, the flight deck would carry out the appropriate actions keeping the crew informed whilst doing so. Any sensible 'half wing' captain would defer completely to the P1 when airmanship suggested it was logical to do so. For events that had a few options open to the crew, these would be debated and ultimately, the captain would make the decision based on the previous discussions of experienced crew members.
By allowing the P1 to have exclusive rights over the flight deck, many of the best captains came from the 'half wing' fraternity because they totally understood the mission requirements and tactical employment of the aircraft. Conversely, some of the less impressive captains were P1's who tried to interfere with how the aircraft was operated down the back without having a thorough grasp of what was going on. Interestingly, a few crews had flying officer captains with a squadron leader P1 to contend with.
Having said that, I suspect that any future MPA/MMA will resort to P1 captains and rear crew mission commanders. Like many other elements of the RAF, 'half wing' captains are likely to be a historical memory from the past.
come on Party - you know better than to reason with dyed-in-the-wool no-stick no-vote Beagle 
Everyone can have an opinion, luckily for me those that with opinions that actually counted decided otherwise to Beags! All in the past now anyway...
Everyone can have an opinion, luckily for me those that with opinions that actually counted decided otherwise to Beags! All in the past now anyway...
the idiotic press-on-itis decision making I witnessed by some 'AEO captain' at ASI made me thankful that we didn't have such nonsense in the AAR world.
Met man says 45kt winds at sea level with sea state 8 for almost the entire chunk of Atlantic between Lajes and the USA, calming down significantly for the day after.
I suggested to the AARC that we delay 24 hrs. He wasn't interested and was determined to push on with his plan. I suggested bang seat limits and survivability just in case the worst happened. He attempted to brow beat me with the infintessimal chances of such an event ever ocurring and suggested he would embarrass me if I mentioned it. I told him, I would do my job and let the Harrier sqn boss decide.
Trail brief started with the AARC providing a wonderful rosy picture of the leg to Dover AFB. I suggested the reality of the weather and enquired about bang seat limitations. Result was a no brainer from the harrier guys and we delayed 24 hrs, leaving the ARRC to sulk and moan for the rest of the evening.
I learned about ARRC's from that.........
Part animal-AARC or ARRC? From my experience as an AARC I was usually surprised by the high sea states that FJ crews were prepared to accept. In fact if memory serves one of the first items on the check list was to cross check with the FJ crews as to whether the wx met their rules.
As one FJ mate said- State 7 or 9 makes no difference to me I won't get to my dingy!
As one FJ mate said- State 7 or 9 makes no difference to me I won't get to my dingy!
Last edited by vascodegama; 2nd Sep 2014 at 11:20. Reason: Typo
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After quite a number of years at Kinloss and after experiencing the leadership styles and effectiveness of a number of Captains I reckon my worst Captain was a certain Pilot, yet my best were a couple of experienced AEOs and an Australian Exchange Pilot, (and it hurts me to say – even a couple of Navs were quite good!!)
Just because an individual is part of the “Two Winged Master Race” it does not maketh him an excellent Captain, a good Pilot maybe, but quite often the two do not go hand in hand.
Just because an individual is part of the “Two Winged Master Race” it does not maketh him an excellent Captain, a good Pilot maybe, but quite often the two do not go hand in hand.
I beg to differ! A 'good pilot' who is not a good Captain, is not a good pilot of a multi-crew aircraft!
4 Greens - easier said than done! Mr Lockheed et al are probably already exasperated with all the ridiculous changes the RAF usually want to make to perfectly good aircraft without 'plumbing in' things like extra nose wheel steering, or in the case of the Herc, moving the hydraulic panel!!!
4 Greens - easier said than done! Mr Lockheed et al are probably already exasperated with all the ridiculous changes the RAF usually want to make to perfectly good aircraft without 'plumbing in' things like extra nose wheel steering, or in the case of the Herc, moving the hydraulic panel!!!
Nav Captains
I remember one bright morning at St Mawgan ,as we were ready to go early, I the 1P asked for and was cleared for a low level pass over the OM.
All went well with the flypast and the 8 hour maritime mission until after landing the captain - my friend the tac nav was ordered to report to OC Ops.
Apparently the AOC was having breakfast in the mess and was unimpressed with a Nimrod flying over at 200ft with max chat on!
The captain got the big bollocking whilst I was unwinding in the scruffs bar.
Now that's what being a captain is all about!
All went well with the flypast and the 8 hour maritime mission until after landing the captain - my friend the tac nav was ordered to report to OC Ops.
Apparently the AOC was having breakfast in the mess and was unimpressed with a Nimrod flying over at 200ft with max chat on!
The captain got the big bollocking whilst I was unwinding in the scruffs bar.
Now that's what being a captain is all about!
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Interesting replies to my initial post. Yes, I was talking about the Tac Transport OCUs, ie Beverley and Herc which as AA62 said, sent the co-pilots through a complete 6 month OCU to become a captain. Although I do remember flying co-pilot solo in the circuit on Beverleys ie just 2 copilots and no qualified captain onboard. Had an engine overspeed on such a sortie - very frightening! I cant remember doing that on Hercs.
When I was a Nimrod Nav captain I always left flightdeck decisions to the flightdeck, just told them to keep me informed. I wouldn't have dreamed of commenting on bad weather approaches or suggesting they went 'lower'. But there again I had a very good first pilot whom I totally trusted.
Regarding percentage split of front end/backend captains, during my time I remember most squadrons only having 2, at the most 3, backend captains, usually Navs with very few AEOs.
When I was a Nimrod Nav captain I always left flightdeck decisions to the flightdeck, just told them to keep me informed. I wouldn't have dreamed of commenting on bad weather approaches or suggesting they went 'lower'. But there again I had a very good first pilot whom I totally trusted.
Regarding percentage split of front end/backend captains, during my time I remember most squadrons only having 2, at the most 3, backend captains, usually Navs with very few AEOs.
