National Identity Cards
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So do you want to have the 'Pass Law' reinstated? Or police stopping people at random demanding "Ihre Papiere, bitte!".
If you mean should people be accountable to the authorities for their legal status, then yes. Given that many countries are flooded with illegal aliens who are unaccountable, it would be a step towards making the rest of us safer, and it would reduce the abuse of resources paid for by taxpayers.
Stopping at random? Maybe, but I would prefer to see profiling, but of course that's an unmentionable as it's not PC. Who is more likely to be a criminal, an 80 year old lady hobbling back from drawing her pension at the Post Office and with a loaf of bread in her bag, or a 22 year old with dreadlocks driving a Renault Clito with booming music and blackout windows?
Finally, excuse my ignorance, but what's a 1250?
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Stop and question powers in the UK would be tricky given that anyone subject to questioning, save for a few exceptions, is entitled to several legal protections.
Not everything needs a power or law behind it. There's no reason an officer can't engage anyone in conversation. That persons reaction may or may not lead the officer to determine they need to detain them for a search or even arrest them. Much of that comes down to experience and circumstance.
500N,
So which is it? Police are racist for searching too many people 'of colour' or Police are ineffectual for being scared to tackle gangs of abusers due to their race?
Not everything needs a power or law behind it. There's no reason an officer can't engage anyone in conversation. That persons reaction may or may not lead the officer to determine they need to detain them for a search or even arrest them. Much of that comes down to experience and circumstance.
500N,
So which is it? Police are racist for searching too many people 'of colour' or Police are ineffectual for being scared to tackle gangs of abusers due to their race?
Gentleman Aviator
Finally, excuse my ignorance, but what's a 1250?
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The citizens of the UK hold an aversion to any kind of ID card - for the duration of WW 2 cards were issued with the promise that they would be destroyed after hostilities ended. ID cards would not do anything to improve security under present circumstances and it would be a foolish politician who tied to introduce them. The phrase "thin end of the wedge"comes to mind when applied to this subject,we have enough documentation to prove who we are without further infringement of our civil liberties.
Unfortunately almost anything these days seems to get labeled an infringement of human rights or civil liberties. If having proof of identity or being asked a question by a police person is the worst infringement you have to put up with then I would say you're very lucky.
We have ID cards in France and they are very useful and no one seems to be suffering too badly from having their rights violated and trampled all over. People in the streets don't get all upset when a Gendarme talks to them.
The only people that should get upset about ID cards are the people that don't have them... ...for whatever reason.
We have ID cards in France and they are very useful and no one seems to be suffering too badly from having their rights violated and trampled all over. People in the streets don't get all upset when a Gendarme talks to them.
The only people that should get upset about ID cards are the people that don't have them... ...for whatever reason.
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It always amuses me that given this is supposed to be a forum board for mil / ex-mil that so many are opposed to carrying an ID.
Nothing to hide....nothing to fear
Nothing to hide....nothing to fear
For starters this was a government run, IT-based scheme. I don't think it is outlandish to worry about the security and accuracy of such a system given the UK's track record with national government IT systems. Considering this would have been a system with which individuals could prove their legality for a number of reasons I'd say security and accuracy were major concerns.
Then its worth bearing in mind the sluggish nature by which those controlling such government systems adapt to threats from those who may be interested in accessing the information contained within, such as criminal enterprises. Given the breadth of the previously planned system there would have been a wide range of personal information available to those inclined and able to access it in a single one-stop shop.
As has already been stated though, the existence of ID cards is no guarantee of security, indeed an over-reliance on such a system when criminals and potential security threats may have the ability to produce fraudulent cards is actually a dangerous overall weakness. If you can get into the system (and any system is fallible) then a fake ID isn't actually fake at all when consideration is made to said system being the likely means of clarification.
Yes I have a 1250 (it'll be a cold day in hell before I call it an MOD90) but it has a photo of me on it, a few written details and little more else. The proposed UK ID card would/could have had a wide range of details from fingerprints, iris scans, biometric data and a host of other data potentially useful to nefarious characters and all, in case we have forgotten, controlled by the lowest bidder for a government contract.
I for one am glad the scheme died an early death.
Originally Posted by THS
The proposed UK ID card would/could have had a wide range of details from fingerprints, iris scans, biometric data and a host of other data potentially useful to nefarious characters and all, in case we have forgotten, controlled by the lowest bidder for a government contract.
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Given that such data is already stored in IT systems for your passport, driving licence, bank cards, etc, I don't really see the issue here
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It always amuses me that given this is supposed to be a forum board for mil / ex-mil that so many are opposed to carrying an ID. 
Nothing to hide....nothing to fear
Nothing to hide....nothing to fear
You have to remember the likes of Japan had already rejected the previous system we were going the adopt as unworkable.
Yes I carried a 1250 in the RAF and thought a Nationwide system would have been good at the time, but the older and maybe wiser I get the less i think it is. It is eroding our Civil liberties bit by bit.
I also objected to the Government spending £300 million of public monies on the previous fiasco when the money could have been used elsewhere and then expecting every Cititzen to put their hand into their pockets and pay some £300 to buy the compulsory card, I could afford it, but a lot of folks wouldn't be able to, that was setting a precendent for the future stealth taxes, because that is what it was.
I am getting totally fed up with the Goverrnments bywords for slipping through further restrictions on the publics rights to Civil liberties by spouting off the usual rhetoric " It is needed to counter terrorism"
Horse Crap.... No foreign visitors including long term students on visa's need to be carrying an ID card, and the terrorists involved it the Murder of Trooper Rigby and the London bus and tube bombings would have as said before been legally entitled to an ID card. It's simply another way to attempt press through greater restrictive legislation on the populace under the of thinly veiled "prevention of terrorism"
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Here's a radical idea.
How about the Government going after the bad guys and stop dragging everyone else down to the lowest common denominator?
How about the Government going after the bad guys and stop dragging everyone else down to the lowest common denominator?
Originally Posted by THS
Systems being the operative word, not a single one-stop shop. A single, fallible system is the issue, which I'm sure was adequately explained in the post which you selected that quote from.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the counter-terrorism uses for an National ID card.
But having to carry one would also help the fight against credit card fraud (I had to show my driving licence when making a purchase in the States recently as the chip and pin reader was bust - here, get the PIN wrong (or play dumb and say you've forgotten it) and they'll just ask you to sign the slip. Forging most peoples credit card signatures is not difficult, particularly those whose signatures are little more than scribble....(not that I've tried of course)).
It would also go a long way to preventing welfare fraud (people signing on at numerous different job centres under different aliases). Thumb print technology (already used on the i Phone (and the free lockers at Universal Studio, Florida!)) would prevent, in a single stroke, individuals being able to make multiple claims. Don't like the policy - don't claim the benefit.
I also recall, back in the day (!), that when the 1250 became the Mod F90 the black magnetic strip on the back was going to be used for all sorts of things (including, IIRC, mess charges, bar charges, meal charges) with ambitious plans for it to be used as a 'virtual cash card'. Allowances would be paid onto 'the card' and you would then swipe the card at a suitable terminal and transfer the money to your bank or arrange for it to be paid in cash. I guess this aspect got overtaken by the great success that was JPA.
THS
I take it, therefore, that you do not bank or shop online or use ATMs - after all, these non-government 'systems' have all been proven to be 'fallible' rather than expected to be 'fallible'.
But having to carry one would also help the fight against credit card fraud (I had to show my driving licence when making a purchase in the States recently as the chip and pin reader was bust - here, get the PIN wrong (or play dumb and say you've forgotten it) and they'll just ask you to sign the slip. Forging most peoples credit card signatures is not difficult, particularly those whose signatures are little more than scribble....(not that I've tried of course
)).It would also go a long way to preventing welfare fraud (people signing on at numerous different job centres under different aliases). Thumb print technology (already used on the i Phone (and the free lockers at Universal Studio, Florida!)) would prevent, in a single stroke, individuals being able to make multiple claims. Don't like the policy - don't claim the benefit.
I also recall, back in the day (!), that when the 1250 became the Mod F90 the black magnetic strip on the back was going to be used for all sorts of things (including, IIRC, mess charges, bar charges, meal charges) with ambitious plans for it to be used as a 'virtual cash card'. Allowances would be paid onto 'the card' and you would then swipe the card at a suitable terminal and transfer the money to your bank or arrange for it to be paid in cash. I guess this aspect got overtaken by the great success that was JPA.
THS
and any system is fallible
Gentleman Aviator
Wrathmonk
IIRC, the mag strip was there for several of the later iterations of the F1250 too. One, I believe, was to be an "instant check in" for AT - any movers recall if that idea got anywhere?
Of course we do! But we choose to participate in them and - should we lose confidence in them, or for any other reason - we can choose to stop.
That's the difference ........
I also recall, back in the day (!), that when the 1250 became the Mod F90 the black magnetic strip on the back was going to be used for all sorts of things
I take it, therefore, that you do not bank or shop online or use ATMs - after all, these non-government 'systems' have all been proven to be 'fallible' rather than expected to be 'fallible'.
That's the difference ........
It looks like this idea is intended to enable the police to identify “illegal” UK residents. That sounds OK, but what really happens when “illegals” are found? The vast majority certainly won't be deported.
All that is needed is a girlfriend/boyfriend/child or pet dog and they can claim that deportation would infringe their human right to a family life. They would then be given indefinite right to stay, a smart new ID card and passport plus advice on how to claim benefits.
All that is needed is a girlfriend/boyfriend/child or pet dog and they can claim that deportation would infringe their human right to a family life. They would then be given indefinite right to stay, a smart new ID card and passport plus advice on how to claim benefits.
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Who is going to pay for it?
I already have a Passport and a Photocard Driving Licence, both of which prove my identity and both of which cost me money.
Why the **** should I spend more of my hard earned on another form of ID?
I already have a Passport and a Photocard Driving Licence, both of which prove my identity and both of which cost me money.
Why the **** should I spend more of my hard earned on another form of ID?
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Back to my earlier post- any gov't issued ID card is subject to fraudulent replication and useage- here, our drivers licences are multicolour, with photo, hologram photo, imprinted signature (twice) and magnetic strip, but as I mentioned, was very successfully replicated with different photo in my son's case. The licence number was entered in incorrect format, but it was still accepted on multiple occasions. And who do you think is more likely to be carrying an ID card- the previously mentioned legal 80yr old dear with the loaf of bread, or the dreadlocked visible minority carrying the best forgery money can buy?
Credit card companies/banks have a very large economic interest in maintaining card security, but government does not- it costs them, and we've already seen opposition/complaints about said costs to taxpayers. BTW wrathmonk- I'm surprised that the US knew about chips/pins- we drive the US east coast many times a year and have never seen or heard of them there, nor have sales staff, although we have had them in Canada for years. Even Canadian subsidiaries of US firms often do not have chip card machines. As for signatures, I sign " Moooooo" for small amount charges and have never been challenged yet!
Increased random stops are a questionable means of security as illegals/bad guys are more likely to have 'good' ID, and if you have to stop 20 white-hat looking people to justify stopping 1 black-hat looking person, it wont be long before the public backlash will cut in.
IMHO all ID cards and random stops really do is to make the Government of the day appear to have done something.
Oh and I used to have an FIdent1250- that justifies this post on a milaviation forum!
Credit card companies/banks have a very large economic interest in maintaining card security, but government does not- it costs them, and we've already seen opposition/complaints about said costs to taxpayers. BTW wrathmonk- I'm surprised that the US knew about chips/pins- we drive the US east coast many times a year and have never seen or heard of them there, nor have sales staff, although we have had them in Canada for years. Even Canadian subsidiaries of US firms often do not have chip card machines. As for signatures, I sign " Moooooo" for small amount charges and have never been challenged yet!
Increased random stops are a questionable means of security as illegals/bad guys are more likely to have 'good' ID, and if you have to stop 20 white-hat looking people to justify stopping 1 black-hat looking person, it wont be long before the public backlash will cut in.
IMHO all ID cards and random stops really do is to make the Government of the day appear to have done something.
Oh and I used to have an FIdent1250- that justifies this post on a milaviation forum!
Last edited by N2erk; 27th Aug 2014 at 16:35. Reason: correct spelling error- forgot an 'n'
Why the **** should I spend more of my hard earned on another form of ID?
Because in UK you don't have to have a driving licence .... you choose to.
Because in UK you don't have to have a passport ... you choose to.
Therefore, in this country, you can (by choice, and at present) have absolutely nothing that proves your identity (nor, your country of origin/birth). And that's why the illegals love it here.....the government can't deport you back to whence you came if they can't prove where that is. I wonder how many Iraqi/Afghan/African etc (other category of immigrants are available) passports and/or identity cards are floating in the English Channel or sitting in a landfill in Kent....
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You miss my point entirely Wrathmonk. I have photo ID, two seperate official types. I am ****** if I am going to pay for another form.
However, just so I've got your position right.
In your world people are required to be able to identify themselves via an ID card and have to pay for it?
Good luck with that one.
However, just so I've got your position right.
In your world people are required to be able to identify themselves via an ID card and have to pay for it?
Good luck with that one.
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Therefore, in this country, you can (by choice, and at present) have absolutely nothing that proves your identity (nor, your country of origin/birth). And that's why the illegals love it here.....the government can't deport you back to whence you came if they can't prove where that is. I wonder how many Iraqi/Afghan/African etc (other category of immigrants are available) passports and/or identity cards are floating in the English Channel or sitting in a landfill in Kent....
So let me get this straight, you have said that at the moment because we do not have a compulsory ID system that proves your identity and Country and Origin, you are saying is we should now give everyone in the UK a ID card because that way when Johnny Illegal puts his Country on it you then can deport him?
The £300 million spent in the last ID fiasco could have been spent hiring a few extra staff and making our borders more secure, we are an a Island for gawd sake. I still haven't figured out why trucks don't have bloody great locks on their doors and he likes of Axles and undersides boxed in... Considering the fines imposed on the truck operators it has to be worth the cost.