More Medals/Bar!
I am somewhat taken aback that no one has mentioned a Cod War medal. Those of us in the Maritime forces that had to come up against Icelandic Gun Boat warriors in those hostile seas. I know I found it quite trying cooking a honkers stew in the Nimrod galley!!!!!
My grandfather had the pre-1962 GSM earned in 'Iraq' in 1920.
Not sure when it was first issued but 40 odd years for each is something.
Not sure when it was first issued but 40 odd years for each is something.
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TTN while on the subject why do they no longer award the MC as they did for aerial warfare during WW1
NL,
The 'original' GSM was issued twice IIRC first pre WWII and secondly post WWII up to Dec 1962 when Brunei was the last clasp. Not sure how many clasps were issued for both.
Your MC versus DFC might relate to when the DFC was instituted and remember, the RFC was an Army thing!!
TTN will have the full details - I shall defer to him.
Old Duffer
The 'original' GSM was issued twice IIRC first pre WWII and secondly post WWII up to Dec 1962 when Brunei was the last clasp. Not sure how many clasps were issued for both.
Your MC versus DFC might relate to when the DFC was instituted and remember, the RFC was an Army thing!!
TTN will have the full details - I shall defer to him.
Old Duffer
Gentleman Aviator
The 'original' GSM was issued twice IIRC first pre WWII and secondly post WWII up to Dec 1962 when Brunei was the last clasp. Not sure how many clasps were issued for both.
He (correctly) wore his pre-'62 GSM in front of his war medals, which looked most odd and confused a lot of SWOs!
Think the bar was Palestine in the '30s......
[just Googled it - Wiki says "Palestine" bar was 19 Apr 36 - 3 Sep 39. Think we can work out why THAT closing date was used! Wiki also says 17 clasps for that one (7 before and 10 after WW2) and 13 - including the rare "South Vietnam" for the 1962 version.]
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A though occurred to me as I was reading assorted Hansard bits and links to papers 'lodged in the Commons Library ...
Were any loadies/despatchers/cargo-handlers on those flights? i.e. non-aircrew? Or was the ability to carry max freight critical, and leave loading/unloading to ground personnel?
I just thought that there might have been equal 'risk and rigour' for non-aircrew on those flights. And just one day's service could have sprung up a few anomalous individuals who might have qualified.
@ teeteringhead ... we had an ATCO of mature years at Manby in the 60s, whose ribbons started with the Northwest Frontier and a GSM before the WW2 stars etc. Definitely caught one's eye by being so different.
The General Service Medal 1918 - 62 with clasp “BERLIN AIRLIFT” should be awarded for at least one day’s service to all aircrew, RAF and civilian, who took part in the Berlin Airlift operation from 25 June 1948 to 6 October 1949 inclusive.
I just thought that there might have been equal 'risk and rigour' for non-aircrew on those flights. And just one day's service could have sprung up a few anomalous individuals who might have qualified.
@ teeteringhead ... we had an ATCO of mature years at Manby in the 60s, whose ribbons started with the Northwest Frontier and a GSM before the WW2 stars etc. Definitely caught one's eye by being so different.
O-D - 17 clasps issued for the 1918 GSM. The only Brit recipients of the 'Southern Desert Iraq' clasp (1928) were from 30, 55 and 70 Squadrons, RAF. The newly announced 'Cyprus' clasp to the 1962 GSM will bring the total to 14 clasps for that medal (you are quite correct up to this date teeters).
You are right about the MC, of course, but it continues to be available to RAF officers when operating on the ground. There were a number awarded to escaped RAF POWs during WW2, and of course quite a few have gone to RAF regiment officers. When I was at Catterick we had a squadron leader who had won the MC in Aden, and even more unusually a wing commander who sported the ribbon of the MM which he had won as a corporal during WW2.
Re Cold War and Cod War - how about two new so-named clasps to the GSM - they'd look quite good together!
You are right about the MC, of course, but it continues to be available to RAF officers when operating on the ground. There were a number awarded to escaped RAF POWs during WW2, and of course quite a few have gone to RAF regiment officers. When I was at Catterick we had a squadron leader who had won the MC in Aden, and even more unusually a wing commander who sported the ribbon of the MM which he had won as a corporal during WW2.
Re Cold War and Cod War - how about two new so-named clasps to the GSM - they'd look quite good together!
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Thanks guys, that's answered the question I always wondered about.
More Medals/Bar ???
It may well be that I am not the only follower of this thread who, having served in the RAF for 20 or so years in the 1960s and 70s - and was proud to have done so - left the Service with not a single medal from HMG. This matters when, on occasions such as Remembrance Day, there is nothing to show that I, too, served my Queen and Country - for the little veterans badge is no substitute for a medal.
In my local Church last year, only three people displayed medals on Remembrance Day: the population at large never had to undertake National Service and is fast losing a connection with the Armed Services. And so I am bitterly disappointed that those who assessed the recently-released Review Papers into medallic recognition failed to appreciate how important it is that a simple medal should be awarded that all who served for more than a few years. I simply feel let down by a succession of governments that have failed to grasp this simple point.
'Risk and rigour' properly underscore the award of a campaign medal, but that's not what the current campaign for a 'National Defence Medal' is all about. Many of you who read this will probably wear either or both of the Queen's Golden and/or Diamond Jubilee Medal(s). I was serving when Her Majesty celebrated her Silver Jubilee, and when it became known that medal was to be struck we all looked forward to receiving one as recognition of our service. How disappointing it was then to learn that only a very few would be released and that most of us would be excluded from this award.
I hope that a government soon will reconsider the recently-announced decision that the case for a National Defence Medal is not strong enough, and will see the request as simply a plea for recognition of service rendered in the past - very much as has occurred in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Heavens above, the award of a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal to officers who don't qualify for a Reserve or Cadet Forces medal would be something!
A 'thank you' from the State is all that many of us would appreciate.
Nugget 90
PS My local Mothers' Union has asked me to give a talk this coming November on 'My Father's Medals' as my Dad saw service across in both Europe and Asia in WWII. The reason for this request is that nobody in church that day understood what any of those I wore on my right chest meant. I am pleased, and proud, to comply.
In my local Church last year, only three people displayed medals on Remembrance Day: the population at large never had to undertake National Service and is fast losing a connection with the Armed Services. And so I am bitterly disappointed that those who assessed the recently-released Review Papers into medallic recognition failed to appreciate how important it is that a simple medal should be awarded that all who served for more than a few years. I simply feel let down by a succession of governments that have failed to grasp this simple point.
'Risk and rigour' properly underscore the award of a campaign medal, but that's not what the current campaign for a 'National Defence Medal' is all about. Many of you who read this will probably wear either or both of the Queen's Golden and/or Diamond Jubilee Medal(s). I was serving when Her Majesty celebrated her Silver Jubilee, and when it became known that medal was to be struck we all looked forward to receiving one as recognition of our service. How disappointing it was then to learn that only a very few would be released and that most of us would be excluded from this award.
I hope that a government soon will reconsider the recently-announced decision that the case for a National Defence Medal is not strong enough, and will see the request as simply a plea for recognition of service rendered in the past - very much as has occurred in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Heavens above, the award of a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal to officers who don't qualify for a Reserve or Cadet Forces medal would be something!
A 'thank you' from the State is all that many of us would appreciate.
Nugget 90
PS My local Mothers' Union has asked me to give a talk this coming November on 'My Father's Medals' as my Dad saw service across in both Europe and Asia in WWII. The reason for this request is that nobody in church that day understood what any of those I wore on my right chest meant. I am pleased, and proud, to comply.
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Nugget et all, the Government was horrified at the potential cost.
May I ask if such a medal, or several, were authorized for wear but not authorized for issue, would you buy your own?
The Silver Jubilee could be one. The National (Service) Defence medal and a National Defence medal (Regular service) could be others with length of service or theatre of service bars.
May I ask if such a medal, or several, were authorized for wear but not authorized for issue, would you buy your own?
The Silver Jubilee could be one. The National (Service) Defence medal and a National Defence medal (Regular service) could be others with length of service or theatre of service bars.
The same, of course, applies to other flying services. The Jugroom fort Apache rescue mission saw DFCs awarded to the two pilots who stayed in the aircraft and MCs to the two who had to leave the aircraft and assist on the ground.
Gentleman Aviator
Pontius The 13 I refer to at post 65 above are:
Borneo
Radfan
South Arabia
Malay Peninsula
South Vietnam
Northern Ireland
Dhofar
Lebanon
Mine Clearance, Gulf Of Suez
Gulf
Kuwait
N. Iraq & S. Turkey
Air Operations Iraq
plus the newly announced Cyprus one TTN mentions at post 68. South Vietnam is the rarest - only authorised for Australian Forces and only 69 clasps issued - all to members of AATTV (Australian Army Training Team (!!) Vietnam)
Borneo
Radfan
South Arabia
Malay Peninsula
South Vietnam
Northern Ireland
Dhofar
Lebanon
Mine Clearance, Gulf Of Suez
Gulf
Kuwait
N. Iraq & S. Turkey
Air Operations Iraq
plus the newly announced Cyprus one TTN mentions at post 68. South Vietnam is the rarest - only authorised for Australian Forces and only 69 clasps issued - all to members of AATTV (Australian Army Training Team (!!) Vietnam)
Medal Purchase ?
The answer to your question, 'If such a medal were to be authorised, would I be prepared to purchase it' is, "Yes". I would not, however, purchase and wear an unauthorised medal since that would defeat the true 'award' element. I would also offer my time to help reduce costs likely to be incurred in processing applications and might also make a donation if this were to be acceptable.
When I answered Sir John Holmes' request for input in 2012, I began my e-mail with the words, 'Not for myself, but for future generations of servicemen and women who might experience a long period without any opportunity to earn a medal ...'. I don't know if you watched any of the parade at Folkestone this afternoon, but few in the RAF contingent had any medals on display: after our troops return from Afghanistan there may be another 'medal famine' on the way which will disappoint many, I am sure, and this ought to be avoided by recognising service and commitment.
When I answered Sir John Holmes' request for input in 2012, I began my e-mail with the words, 'Not for myself, but for future generations of servicemen and women who might experience a long period without any opportunity to earn a medal ...'. I don't know if you watched any of the parade at Folkestone this afternoon, but few in the RAF contingent had any medals on display: after our troops return from Afghanistan there may be another 'medal famine' on the way which will disappoint many, I am sure, and this ought to be avoided by recognising service and commitment.
South Vietnam
Further to the occasional posts on the 'South Vietnam' clasp to the 1962 GSM awarded only to members of the Australian Army Training Team, I have a suspicion that the recipients were later offered the opportunity to 'convert' this to the Vietnam Medal (VM - awarded for operational service in South Vietnam between 1964 and 1973).
Nobody has yet mentioned - in this thread - the Vietnam Logistic and Support Medal (VLSM) that was instituted as late as 1993 but, using the same medal as the VM yet with a plain supporter and different ribbon that included brown to represent the earth and waters of the Mekong River. (Look it up, it really is quite colourful!)
The same medal was used as this design as this had been struck whilst Australia adhered to the Imperial (British) Honours System, which is why it bears the image of HM The Queen. To qualify, one had to be either in the Australian Armed Forces or integrated with them. Thus of the 10,000 or so that were awarded, most of the recipients were the crews of the C130 Hercules and sailors of HMAS Sydney that conveyed the army's heavy vehicles up the Mekong, i.e. temporary visitors. Qantas crews who deployed troops via Richmond, Townsville and Saigon also qualified, as did some medical personnel and - quite recently - qualification was extended to include Sabre pilots and Australian ground forces who had been based at Ubon in Thailand defending the USAF F4s and Jolly Green Giants based there. (RAAF elements based at Vung Tau, etc. qualified for the VM, not the VLSM.)
Nobody has yet mentioned - in this thread - the Vietnam Logistic and Support Medal (VLSM) that was instituted as late as 1993 but, using the same medal as the VM yet with a plain supporter and different ribbon that included brown to represent the earth and waters of the Mekong River. (Look it up, it really is quite colourful!)
The same medal was used as this design as this had been struck whilst Australia adhered to the Imperial (British) Honours System, which is why it bears the image of HM The Queen. To qualify, one had to be either in the Australian Armed Forces or integrated with them. Thus of the 10,000 or so that were awarded, most of the recipients were the crews of the C130 Hercules and sailors of HMAS Sydney that conveyed the army's heavy vehicles up the Mekong, i.e. temporary visitors. Qantas crews who deployed troops via Richmond, Townsville and Saigon also qualified, as did some medical personnel and - quite recently - qualification was extended to include Sabre pilots and Australian ground forces who had been based at Ubon in Thailand defending the USAF F4s and Jolly Green Giants based there. (RAAF elements based at Vung Tau, etc. qualified for the VM, not the VLSM.)
The ‘medal famine’ referred to in this Thread, did not begin to be reversed until GW1 in 1990/1.The very significant deployments of all services meant a plethora of Gulf medals. The arrival of a Labour Government coincided (approximately) with a more interventionist policy on the world stage and generated not just British campaign medals but significant numbers from other agencies.Despite serious cuts in defence resources, one would be unwise to believe that there is/will be any less appetite amongst our political masters – of any colour – to rattle sabres if there are thought to be votes in it.
Returning to the theme of a ‘service medal’ to recognise commitment, perhaps Sir John Holmes asked the wrong people.I believe that, in part, the rise in ‘bling’: that is the unofficial commemorative medals’ market, is fed by the general discontent that former service personnel have at how their service is not valued.
It is said that the problem with extending the LS&GCM to include officers is; ‘what about the officer who does not meet the good conduct part of the gong’?The counter argument to that is; ‘if an officer’s conduct falls short of that expected, he should not be in the service anyway’.
It follows that an LS&GCM, awarded at – say – the 15 year point to all ranks would recognise commitment over a sustained period.If there is an ‘unease’ about the conduct element, then a new medal called – say – ‘The Armed Forces Service Medal’ could be substituted instead.The very long and exemplary service of non-commissioned personnel can still be rewarded and recognised by the Meritorious Service Medal, as at present.
Old Duffer
Returning to the theme of a ‘service medal’ to recognise commitment, perhaps Sir John Holmes asked the wrong people.I believe that, in part, the rise in ‘bling’: that is the unofficial commemorative medals’ market, is fed by the general discontent that former service personnel have at how their service is not valued.
It is said that the problem with extending the LS&GCM to include officers is; ‘what about the officer who does not meet the good conduct part of the gong’?The counter argument to that is; ‘if an officer’s conduct falls short of that expected, he should not be in the service anyway’.
It follows that an LS&GCM, awarded at – say – the 15 year point to all ranks would recognise commitment over a sustained period.If there is an ‘unease’ about the conduct element, then a new medal called – say – ‘The Armed Forces Service Medal’ could be substituted instead.The very long and exemplary service of non-commissioned personnel can still be rewarded and recognised by the Meritorious Service Medal, as at present.
Old Duffer
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TTH, thank you, so Rhodesia, Belize, Kuwait (1st time), Suez don't feature.
The official UK Government webpage may prove useful:
PN, they wouldn't because ....
Rhodesia -separate medal, always considered a bit of a funny as it wasn't a campaign but a peace brokering tour. Is always worn in the most junior of positions ie always to the left (as worn) regardless of when it was awarded in relation to others.
Belize - Overseas Garrison that also provided valuable jungle training, not certain this warrants a campaign medal, don't recall a single shot being fired in anger, not even serious threat from Guatemala post our invitation to Garrison.
Kuwait - elaborate what you mean the first time. If you refer to 1990/91, the Gulf Medal covers that with either of the two bars or no bar at all as above. There was a bar for the follow on troops as stated earlier.
Suez - happened before the 1962 GSM. Regardless, there is a bar to the GSM 1918 (and the Naval GSM), awarded retrospectively about 8 years ago. I think the wording is "Canal Zone".
Some of that is opinion based, always happy to argue my point in a civil manner over a beer!
Rhodesia -separate medal, always considered a bit of a funny as it wasn't a campaign but a peace brokering tour. Is always worn in the most junior of positions ie always to the left (as worn) regardless of when it was awarded in relation to others.
Belize - Overseas Garrison that also provided valuable jungle training, not certain this warrants a campaign medal, don't recall a single shot being fired in anger, not even serious threat from Guatemala post our invitation to Garrison.
Kuwait - elaborate what you mean the first time. If you refer to 1990/91, the Gulf Medal covers that with either of the two bars or no bar at all as above. There was a bar for the follow on troops as stated earlier.
Suez - happened before the 1962 GSM. Regardless, there is a bar to the GSM 1918 (and the Naval GSM), awarded retrospectively about 8 years ago. I think the wording is "Canal Zone".
Some of that is opinion based, always happy to argue my point in a civil manner over a beer!