What happens to personnel serving in the armed forces if Scotland gets independence?
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What happens to personnel serving in the armed forces if Scotland gets independence?
I asked the above question of the yes Campaign and received this in response
Bold highlights are mine)
"Chapter 6 of "Scotland's Future" sets out proposals for defence and the armed forces, with page 244 setting out the arrangements for personnel.
Below are the most relevant paragraphs, which make clear the continuity of rights and entitlements for those who take up the offer of transfer to the Scottish defence forces - though this would be purely a matter of choice.
"The Scottish Government respects the service of current personnel. We will ensure that all current service personnel will be eligible for a post in the Scottish defence forces, though they will not need to take it up.
"All service personnel will have the reassurance that they will not face compulsory redundancy during their service contract. This Scottish Government would examine how the terms and conditions of service personnel could be improved, for example through the official representation of service personnel.
"Where whole or part of units are identified for transfer to Scottish defence forces, the Scottish Government will ensure that all current UK service personnel within those units can remain with them for at least a transitional period, where they wish to do so. A similar approach will be followed for reserve personnel and the important role of cadet forces will also be maintained.
"The aim will be a phased and responsible approach to the position of those currently serving in the UK armed forces who might wish to transfer to Scottish defence forces. Some may transfer immediately, while others would continue in their current role. It is our intention that terms and conditions remain harmonised through this period. Any sensible approach would recognise that, at the end of that process, it is highly likely that citizens from the rest of the UK, Ireland and from other Commonwealth countries would be serving in an independent Scotland’s defence forces. Though it would ultimately be a decision for the rest of the UK, we also expect that Scottish citizens will continue to serve in UK forces if they wish to, as citizens of Ireland and the Commonwealth do."
In our view independence also means we can make a significantly better job of looking after our service personnel than the UK Ministry of Defence which has presided over compulsory redundancies, falling morale, and poor procurement and provision of equipment."
I did not receive a response to my question about the composition of the Scottish Armed Forces - no and type of units, squadrons, ships etc.
Bold highlights are mine)"Chapter 6 of "Scotland's Future" sets out proposals for defence and the armed forces, with page 244 setting out the arrangements for personnel.
Below are the most relevant paragraphs, which make clear the continuity of rights and entitlements for those who take up the offer of transfer to the Scottish defence forces - though this would be purely a matter of choice.
"The Scottish Government respects the service of current personnel. We will ensure that all current service personnel will be eligible for a post in the Scottish defence forces, though they will not need to take it up.
"All service personnel will have the reassurance that they will not face compulsory redundancy during their service contract. This Scottish Government would examine how the terms and conditions of service personnel could be improved, for example through the official representation of service personnel.
"Where whole or part of units are identified for transfer to Scottish defence forces, the Scottish Government will ensure that all current UK service personnel within those units can remain with them for at least a transitional period, where they wish to do so. A similar approach will be followed for reserve personnel and the important role of cadet forces will also be maintained.
"The aim will be a phased and responsible approach to the position of those currently serving in the UK armed forces who might wish to transfer to Scottish defence forces. Some may transfer immediately, while others would continue in their current role. It is our intention that terms and conditions remain harmonised through this period. Any sensible approach would recognise that, at the end of that process, it is highly likely that citizens from the rest of the UK, Ireland and from other Commonwealth countries would be serving in an independent Scotland’s defence forces. Though it would ultimately be a decision for the rest of the UK, we also expect that Scottish citizens will continue to serve in UK forces if they wish to, as citizens of Ireland and the Commonwealth do."
In our view independence also means we can make a significantly better job of looking after our service personnel than the UK Ministry of Defence which has presided over compulsory redundancies, falling morale, and poor procurement and provision of equipment."
I did not receive a response to my question about the composition of the Scottish Armed Forces - no and type of units, squadrons, ships etc.
The 'Yes' team can make whatever 'pie-in-the -sky' promises they like. It won't be down to them even if they win the referendum. It will be up to the RemainingUK to decide how it deals with its Armed Forces. Scotland will have voted to leave those organisations so have forfeited the right to dictate thier future (in my opinion of course - and I have a vote in it!)
Yawn. Taxation raised in Scotland has paid for approx 10% of the defence assets, so Scotland would be entitled to a negotiated 10% value of the assets if the vote is for independence.
A more pertinent question. If Scotland becomes independent, would England/Wales/Northern Ireland consider it possible to defend themselves against a threat from the North without negotiating to station assets on Scottish soil? Lossie/Kinloss/Leuchars have a very commanding view north. What would they be replaced by in England/Wales/Northern Ireland.
A more pertinent question. If Scotland becomes independent, would England/Wales/Northern Ireland consider it possible to defend themselves against a threat from the North without negotiating to station assets on Scottish soil? Lossie/Kinloss/Leuchars have a very commanding view north. What would they be replaced by in England/Wales/Northern Ireland.
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Yawn. Taxation raised in Scotland has paid for approx 10% of the defence assets, so Scotland would be entitled to a negotiated 10% value of the assets if the vote is for independence.
According to the entitlement outlined above, I should be entitled to 1500 pounds because I paid for one 60 millionth of it, and then left the UK. Where do I send the bill?
What's that, I hear you say? "F*ck off"?.
Well, quite.
alwayslookingup - I join a club that gives me benefits and, while a member, pay an annual subscription. If I then choose to leave - I don't expect to get back my membership fees for the years I've been a member.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully.
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Interesting thoughts on North Sea oil revenue from OBR this morning. Para35 refers.
http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.org....accessible.pdf
http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.org....accessible.pdf
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A more pertinent question. If Scotland becomes independent, would England/Wales/Northern Ireland consider it possible to defend themselves against a threat from the North without negotiating to station assets on Scottish soil? Lossie/Kinloss/Leuchars have a very commanding view north. What would they be replaced by in England/Wales/Northern Ireland.
If you're talking about air defence, then why would the UK have to? It would be Scotland's problem. What's that? Don't want to? Well you'll have to, if you want to join NATO & the EU.
Scotland can't cherry pick what it wants to do. If it goes independent, then as well as the trucks full of honey heading north, they'll have to take some pig**** too.
alwayslookingup - I join a club that gives me benefits and, while a member, pay an annual subscription. If I then choose to leave - I don't expect to get back my membership fees for the years I've been a member.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully
Do love these Scottish independence debates. I give it a couple more posts before it slides into anarchy and bedlam...
Simple, Scots in service of the Crown in the "British" forces become Mercenaries.
Look to Ireland for your answer.
Look to Ireland for your answer.
HM Forces personnel are not mercenaries. The UK armed forces includes personnel from across the Commonwealth as well as Ireland, and has done for years. There is no reason why that should not continue to some extent in the event of a 'Yes' vote in the referendum.
BTW I am not making a pro-independence point. But on this particular issue of the treatment of forces personnel in the event of independence, the White Paper proposals quoted by the OP are sensible, in so far as they go.
and poor procurement and provision of equipment.
Replicate Hadrian's Wall a bit further north; that would be a start.
Yawn. Taxation raised in Scotland has paid for approx 10% of the defence assets, so Scotland would be entitled to a negotiated 10% value of the assets if the vote is for independence.
A more pertinent question. If Scotland becomes independent, would England/Wales/Northern Ireland consider it possible to defend themselves against a threat from the North without negotiating to station assets on Scottish soil? Lossie/Kinloss/Leuchars have a very commanding view north. What would they be replaced by in England/Wales/Northern Ireland
By what law, agreement or convention would Scotland be "entitled" to this?
The Vienna Convention of 1983 on the succession of states sets out how assets and liabilities of a state which divides into two or more new states should be apportioned between the new states.
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Some twenty-six years after its adoption, however, the 1983 Convention has yet to enter into force. The 1983 Convention requires only fifteen States to consent to be bound by it to enter into force,
Talk of "mercenaries" and Scots serving in the armed forces at the point of independence being similar to current Commonwealths citizens confuses me.
I live in Scotland, commute weekly like what seems like 95% of the RAF to England, and I was born in Scotland. I have a British passport and I consider myself British.
If Scotland becomes independent, I'm sure I'll be entitled to citizenship there. However, where's the part in the process where I suddenly lose my British citizenship?
If Scotland becomes independent, plenty of us will consider staying exactly where we are in the jobs we have, as befits our British citizenship.
I live in Scotland, commute weekly like what seems like 95% of the RAF to England, and I was born in Scotland. I have a British passport and I consider myself British.
If Scotland becomes independent, I'm sure I'll be entitled to citizenship there. However, where's the part in the process where I suddenly lose my British citizenship?
If Scotland becomes independent, plenty of us will consider staying exactly where we are in the jobs we have, as befits our British citizenship.
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f you're talking about air defence, then why would the UK have to? It would be Scotland's problem. What's that? Don't want to? Well you'll have to, if you want to join NATO & the EU.
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Those in Scotland should vote for an independent Scotland because they think it is a good idea not because of financial reasons. Financial reasons are all subject to policy and world events which can change overnight.
At the stroke of a pen oil prices can crash, taxes raised and benefits/services cut.
If Scotland is not in EU the boarder will need to be closed to stop immigration.
At the stroke of a pen oil prices can crash, taxes raised and benefits/services cut.
If Scotland is not in EU the boarder will need to be closed to stop immigration.