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Prediction....
We will get a lot of hot air and guff spewed out by our and other politicians the World over, and then nothing.
We will get a lot of hot air and guff spewed out by our and other politicians the World over, and then nothing.
None but a blockhead
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Can anyone with some whoosh-bang-nasty knowledge say how an SA-11 could end up being lobbed at a civil aircraft without the op knowing what was on the receiving end?
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Wouldn't there have been a visible exhaust trail from most of the SAMs that could get that far up?
Until more investigation is done, let's not discount the possibility of yet another battery fire/explosion - and avoid travelling in 777s in the meantime.
Until more investigation is done, let's not discount the possibility of yet another battery fire/explosion - and avoid travelling in 777s in the meantime.
SLF
Having operated and maintained Russian SAM systems I can answer that question. Very simply anybody who has had some simple training in operating the system can engage a non maneuvering high altitude target as the system has a high level of automation built in. It was designed to be operated by conscript / reservist crew with minimal operational training (I learn the basic operation of a Russian system from running it up to engaging a non jamming target in a day!). What was the operator seeing and thinking?
He saw a blip on the system search radar within the engagement zone of the equipment.
He was under orders to engage any aircraft that came within the engagement zone of his system.
He didn't know or didn't care that there was an airway within the airspace above his missile system (nor were his commanders).
He engaged the aircraft and shot it down. He didn't know what he was shooting at, but he thought it was an enemy aircraft.
Having operated and maintained Russian SAM systems I can answer that question. Very simply anybody who has had some simple training in operating the system can engage a non maneuvering high altitude target as the system has a high level of automation built in. It was designed to be operated by conscript / reservist crew with minimal operational training (I learn the basic operation of a Russian system from running it up to engaging a non jamming target in a day!). What was the operator seeing and thinking?
He saw a blip on the system search radar within the engagement zone of the equipment.
He was under orders to engage any aircraft that came within the engagement zone of his system.
He didn't know or didn't care that there was an airway within the airspace above his missile system (nor were his commanders).
He engaged the aircraft and shot it down. He didn't know what he was shooting at, but he thought it was an enemy aircraft.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 18th Jul 2014 at 13:00.
Walter
The missile has three stages of propulsion. Boost (get the missile off the launcher and up to flying speed) Sustain (keep the missile at flying speed for as long as possible) and Coast (missile keeps going until drag / gravity brings reduces velocity below a speed that the missile can fly). The missile was most likely in the final stage of its flight when it intercepted the 777, thus no fire at the back to give a smoke trail. The video that is on the net of the start of the aircraft decent has all the hallmarks of a proximity fuzed warhead from a missile being the cause of the loss of the aircraft.
The missile has three stages of propulsion. Boost (get the missile off the launcher and up to flying speed) Sustain (keep the missile at flying speed for as long as possible) and Coast (missile keeps going until drag / gravity brings reduces velocity below a speed that the missile can fly). The missile was most likely in the final stage of its flight when it intercepted the 777, thus no fire at the back to give a smoke trail. The video that is on the net of the start of the aircraft decent has all the hallmarks of a proximity fuzed warhead from a missile being the cause of the loss of the aircraft.
Vid in tonker post#15 certainly looks like a twin at high alt. Cannot make out if initial puff of smoke is a missile hit but, amazing if someone was just filming a random fly over. Seems likely whoever filmned it was actually following where the missile went. Aircraft seems basically intact with flames from the no2 engine and a large plume of burning fuel from the right wing. It looks to remain that way for the period of the film. Very sad. However, comment by foxvc10 that he saw this as an earlier shootdown of a Clank seems very likely.
OAP
OAP
Last edited by Onceapilot; 18th Jul 2014 at 18:07.
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Upon determining just exactly who is responsible, to include those on the ends of the telephone conversations indicating their involvement, the group leadership that immediately claimed the downing then as quickly removed that claim, and anyone remotely involved in the decision to fire that Missile should all be visited by the B-2 folks with a full Fleet Operation until we whack everyone involved.
If Putin makes so much as a peep then we put into place Economic Sanctions that will force his own Military to remove him....permanently.
But as we have Welfare Man at the Helm, about all we shall hear is some half witted comments and token sanctions on Russia that are meaningless.
The Europeans will wring their hands, and do nothing as well.
If Putin makes so much as a peep then we put into place Economic Sanctions that will force his own Military to remove him....permanently.
But as we have Welfare Man at the Helm, about all we shall hear is some half witted comments and token sanctions on Russia that are meaningless.
The Europeans will wring their hands, and do nothing as well.
Russian Ambassador to the UN in the security Council - utter b@lleaux - "Not us guv, we weren't there, and if we were we did not do it - and it all Ukraine and the West's fault" What an absolute tosser
The video is the first Antonov (Clank photo version) shot down. It is a re-post as I watched it a couple(??) of weeks back. I believe the crew used parachutes to escape.
At 35000ft there would be a contrail surely.
The bursts of smoke would be the fire extinguishers.
At 35000ft there would be a contrail surely.
The bursts of smoke would be the fire extinguishers.
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
We will get a lot of hot air and guff spewed out by our and other politicians the World over, and then nothing.
I/C
Here is the conversation in COBR:
God help us if we get as far as the T Shirt Campaign!!!
LJ
"The time for talking is over. Now call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard, and we hit it fast, with a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign."
LJ
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Ronald, don't be so bold as to appoint yourself arbiter of truth, folk here are pretty well exercised and capable of discerning falsehoods from reason. Have a wee bit of humility, if only out of respect for those who lost their lives today and the kin left grieving.
Not sure what the latest development is but the early reports that the flight data recorders were on route to Moscow didn't instil confidence. Not that there would be any point in tampering with the evidence, there was no justification in the shooting down of a civilian aircraft, but Putin must understand that he cannot be seen to be influencing any aspect of the investigation. One can only wonder at the intention of today's events; I don't know what to make of the so called intercepted message from the missile commander. If it is authentic then I'm not sure they knew what they were firing at, but that just beggars belief. In any event, this is a tragedy beyond words, I find all I can do is offer condolences to the families and friends who lost their loved ones.
Tom
Not sure what the latest development is but the early reports that the flight data recorders were on route to Moscow didn't instil confidence. Not that there would be any point in tampering with the evidence, there was no justification in the shooting down of a civilian aircraft, but Putin must understand that he cannot be seen to be influencing any aspect of the investigation. One can only wonder at the intention of today's events; I don't know what to make of the so called intercepted message from the missile commander. If it is authentic then I'm not sure they knew what they were firing at, but that just beggars belief. In any event, this is a tragedy beyond words, I find all I can do is offer condolences to the families and friends who lost their loved ones.
Tom
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Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz
Here is the conversation in COBR:
There is however, just a hint of Dr.Strangelove about the whole thing.
JAS
OAP:-
Well some Civvy airlines have, and it would be interesting to see a complete list of them, and then to note the various regulatory authorities under which they operate. Then make a list of all the airlines that operate under such authorities and avoid traveling on any of them would seem a good start in the self preservation stakes.
Civi airlines have continued to route above, and into, all sorts of hot spots in recent history.
Just for the record, It is appalling if true that these dissidents are preventing the decent recovery and repatriation of the 298 bodies. There may be worse scum, but I find it difficult to think who they might be.
I'm sure it's nothing to worry about, but does anybody else find Ukrainians wandering round the crash site, wearing RAF uniforms, slightly strange if not concerning?
It does rather make me wonder what happens to all the 'official' aid we send to these various wars!
It does rather make me wonder what happens to all the 'official' aid we send to these various wars!
