PAVE HAWK CRASH CLEY REPORT
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PAVE HAWK CRASH CLEY REPORT
Just seen the repoirt into the Pave Hawk crash at Cley, it says that a flock of geese rendered 3 of the crew unconscious, not good.
http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/news/st...p?id=123417020
http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/news/st...p?id=123417020
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Tragic, but an acceptable operational risk that goes with the territory.
At least all the other operators of the equipment are re-assured the cause was 'outside' the aircraft.
Good on the authorities to get this interim finding out so quickly.
At least all the other operators of the equipment are re-assured the cause was 'outside' the aircraft.
Good on the authorities to get this interim finding out so quickly.
I'm sure the operators constantly review their procedures but one must question the wisdom of operating at 100' over a nature reserve known for large populations of big migratory birds. I accept that they perhaps have to practice coastal inserts and extractions, but a nature reserve?
Tragic anyhow.
Tragic anyhow.
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Tragic loss - condolences to the families.
Having lived in Norfolk, I know the coastal areas from Hunstanton to Happisburgh well - it's not only the designated nature reserves that are densely populated with birds, large and small. North Norfolk particulalrly sees some of the larger species of goose, such as Brent, Greylag, the ubiquitous Canada, Pink Footed (generally around the wash); also any variety of the larger gulls. Some are resident, some seasonal visitors (mainly Winter), but should be a known hazard.
It may be classified as "normal operating hazard" (is that phrase still in use?), but given the knowledge of birds being prevelant on this coastline - and some species inland - I would expect extra caution to be exercised when transiting or operating in these areas. That said, the clattering of helicopters normally acts as their own bird dispersal method (as I have seen on many occasions at Penzance, Tresco and St Mary's Heliports).
Mister B
Having lived in Norfolk, I know the coastal areas from Hunstanton to Happisburgh well - it's not only the designated nature reserves that are densely populated with birds, large and small. North Norfolk particulalrly sees some of the larger species of goose, such as Brent, Greylag, the ubiquitous Canada, Pink Footed (generally around the wash); also any variety of the larger gulls. Some are resident, some seasonal visitors (mainly Winter), but should be a known hazard.
It may be classified as "normal operating hazard" (is that phrase still in use?), but given the knowledge of birds being prevelant on this coastline - and some species inland - I would expect extra caution to be exercised when transiting or operating in these areas. That said, the clattering of helicopters normally acts as their own bird dispersal method (as I have seen on many occasions at Penzance, Tresco and St Mary's Heliports).
Mister B
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Just This,
I suppose you did not bother to read the Accident Report as the Report clearly stated the Crew very much did use the UK Military Low Flying Handbook in their planning.
Looking at the Map provided in the Accident Report, the Original IP location and subsequent flight route would have avoided the area where the Birds were encountered.
Noise Abatement Rules determined a need to use a different IP location which put the Aircraft in the position to over fly the location where the Birds were encountered.
Is it fair to suggest the UK Noise Abatement policies were a Contributing Factor to this Fatal Crash?
Do we expose RAF and USAF crews to extra risks as a result of Command Sensitivity to Noise Complaints?
The UK being a very small and densely populated area, with a huge number of Restricted Areas (any place or area that over flight is prohibited or restricted for whatever reason), do those restrictions to operational flight generate a hazard to the Crews when conducting flight operations by forcing them to use areas with increased risk of encounters with Birds?
I suppose you did not bother to read the Accident Report as the Report clearly stated the Crew very much did use the UK Military Low Flying Handbook in their planning.
Looking at the Map provided in the Accident Report, the Original IP location and subsequent flight route would have avoided the area where the Birds were encountered.
Noise Abatement Rules determined a need to use a different IP location which put the Aircraft in the position to over fly the location where the Birds were encountered.
Is it fair to suggest the UK Noise Abatement policies were a Contributing Factor to this Fatal Crash?
Do we expose RAF and USAF crews to extra risks as a result of Command Sensitivity to Noise Complaints?
The UK being a very small and densely populated area, with a huge number of Restricted Areas (any place or area that over flight is prohibited or restricted for whatever reason), do those restrictions to operational flight generate a hazard to the Crews when conducting flight operations by forcing them to use areas with increased risk of encounters with Birds?
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BB
In some areas of the UK it would be almost impossible to avoid concentrations of birds at any time of year, more so during the predictable migration periods. Although the coastlines are more obvious features for some species, quite a few also congregate inland - some resident, some migratory. The birds don't know what is a nature reserve and what is not, given that the adjacent (non-NR) land is often exactly the same, providing the same preferred habit for security, shelter and food source.
Have alook at this site and you will get a good idea of where large species birds could be encountered in UK - just about everywhere:
The RSPB: Birds by family: Swans, ducks and geese
So requiring crews to avoid specified known areas of bird concentrations is no guarantee of not meeting them elsewhere as part of a normal operational hazard. That's the way it is in parts of the country, it just happens that coastal areas are more popular for some (large) species.
Mister B
In some areas of the UK it would be almost impossible to avoid concentrations of birds at any time of year, more so during the predictable migration periods. Although the coastlines are more obvious features for some species, quite a few also congregate inland - some resident, some migratory. The birds don't know what is a nature reserve and what is not, given that the adjacent (non-NR) land is often exactly the same, providing the same preferred habit for security, shelter and food source.
Have alook at this site and you will get a good idea of where large species birds could be encountered in UK - just about everywhere:
The RSPB: Birds by family: Swans, ducks and geese
So requiring crews to avoid specified known areas of bird concentrations is no guarantee of not meeting them elsewhere as part of a normal operational hazard. That's the way it is in parts of the country, it just happens that coastal areas are more popular for some (large) species.
Mister B
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No one is immune from a Bird Strike no matter the precautions taken. Bird Strike Studies can only account for all the various possibilities and suggest strategies for avoiding them but can never offer up a solid fail safe way of doing so.
BB
JTO was surprised that "the USAF are not required to comply with the UK Military Low Flying Handbook" not that the Crew didn't use the UK Military Low Flying Handbook in their planning. It is, as you stated, clear that they did.
However, to quote the BGen in his "Statement of Opinion" (p30) [my bold]
would suggest that he (JTO) had indeed read the report...perhaps more fully than you ....
So is the BGen's opinion wrong? Why do the USAF not have to abide by UK regulations? Should USAF crews be allowed to fly in UK without fully abiding to all the requirements of the UKMil LFH? Does the USAF Chain of Command expose their crews to more risk by directing that they do not have to abide to local regulations?
So many questions...
JTO was surprised that "the USAF are not required to comply with the UK Military Low Flying Handbook" not that the Crew didn't use the UK Military Low Flying Handbook in their planning. It is, as you stated, clear that they did.
However, to quote the BGen in his "Statement of Opinion" (p30) [my bold]
Although not required to comply with the UK Military Low Flying Handbook 56 RQS follows the guidance to the maximum extent possible.
So is the BGen's opinion wrong? Why do the USAF not have to abide by UK regulations? Should USAF crews be allowed to fly in UK without fully abiding to all the requirements of the UKMil LFH? Does the USAF Chain of Command expose their crews to more risk by directing that they do not have to abide to local regulations?
So many questions...
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Very sad. Condolences to everyone.
Re the birds, the Wash has one of the highest concentrations of birds in the whole of the UK, especially when the tide is in and different species of birds are flying back and forth from the mud flats to the fields at different times of the tides, either to eat or roost. I spent many a weekend out there with my parents from age 0 - 14 catching birds.
Having sat on the sea walls and shore at night it is non stop activity and surprised it is used as a route, even a little bit inland would make a difference.
Re disturbing a nature reserve, HTB hit it on the head with this.
"The birds don't know what is a nature reserve and what is not, given that the adjacent (non-NR) land is often exactly the same, providing the same preferred habit for security, shelter and food source."
Thoughts are with all.
Re the birds, the Wash has one of the highest concentrations of birds in the whole of the UK, especially when the tide is in and different species of birds are flying back and forth from the mud flats to the fields at different times of the tides, either to eat or roost. I spent many a weekend out there with my parents from age 0 - 14 catching birds.
Having sat on the sea walls and shore at night it is non stop activity and surprised it is used as a route, even a little bit inland would make a difference.
Re disturbing a nature reserve, HTB hit it on the head with this.
"The birds don't know what is a nature reserve and what is not, given that the adjacent (non-NR) land is often exactly the same, providing the same preferred habit for security, shelter and food source."
Thoughts are with all.
