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Old 17th Jun 2014, 16:37   #41 (permalink)
 
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Those figures in no way compare with what my eastern Ukrainian friends have told me about their views and those of their family and friends.
I hope you don't think surveying your friends offers you definitive proof despite you're attempt to frame it as such.
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Old 17th Jun 2014, 16:50   #42 (permalink)
 
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I remember the polls that said Romney could win the election in the US or that one candidate would win the popular vote and another the electoral college in 2012. But in the end rather amazingly a large majority of the American people elected their hero Obama back into the White House.
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Old 17th Jun 2014, 17:16   #43 (permalink)
 
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Same could be said of your poll of your friends who claim to want to join Vlad the invader as part of Russia.
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Old 17th Jun 2014, 17:27   #44 (permalink)
 
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But West Coast, its really open to debate if he is an invader at all. He seems to be only taking back places which were/are part of Russia but through some quirk of fate have ended up on the wrong side of a line on the map.


But if you want to look at invaders you should look at our own actions such as in Iraq! Now that was an invasion with a truly terrible outcome!
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Old 17th Jun 2014, 17:43   #45 (permalink)
 
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He seems to be only taking back places which were/are part of Russia but through some quirk of fate have ended up on the wrong side of a line on the map.
Lines agreed to by the various countries involved. The 28 reinforced battalions he rolled up to the Ukraine border were just tourists like the ones that actually killed others, no doubt.

So do those inconvenient lines extend to other disputed territories and, if so, how far back can those claims extend?

Certainly, as you brought it up, the mess in the Middle East was caused by the West, British, mostly, with French assistance, drawing lines on a sand map.

Will the claims to the French Channel Ports be re-examined?

Can Norway argue the case for the Shetlands?

Care to have another go at re-claiming the 13 American colonies?

But I understand. It is all our, the West in general, and America in particular, fault.

Sorry. We'll give it back. You sort it out.
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Old 17th Jun 2014, 18:13   #46 (permalink)
 
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But West Coast, its really open to debate if he is an invader at all.
No it's not.
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Old 17th Jun 2014, 19:48   #47 (permalink)
 
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Really? Three independent polls by 3 different polling organisations would tend to indicate otherwise....
Did you consider which background these institutions have. Do you really consider them completely neutral ?

'I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself' comes to mind...

Not saying that People in Eastern Ukraine really support Putin's messing with Ukraine, but I don't like being fooled by institutions with an Agenda or at least a bias.
Since I disdain the fervor with which the Russian population seems to believe their Media in this affair I try to avoid doing the same with our own Media.

And then even from these statistics I can read a huge discrepancy between the general political views of Eastern Ukraine vs. Western Ukraine. In reality I'm really wondering what keeps this thing together?

And reading about the Level of hatred that has developped between pro Russian and pro Western population I really have some difficulties seeing a peaceful and united Ukraine in the medium term. Will have to get worse before getting better, I'm afraid.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 07:50   #48 (permalink)
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Don't talk to me about invaders, the memory of the Norman B'stard William still hangs like a dark cloud over our once fair and pleasant Saxon land. Laying waste to great swathes of the country to subjugate the peaceful agrarian populace with overbearing military force because he believed he was promised the crown by a dying old man (they probably didn't even speak the same language).

The differences between 11th C and now are: location, language and weaponry (and size of army).

Mister B
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 07:55   #49 (permalink)
 
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The differences between 11th C and now are: location, language and weaponry (and size of army).
And the rule of international law.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 09:24   #50 (permalink)
 
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But West Coast, its really open to debate if he is an invader at all. He seems to be only taking back places which were/are part of Russia but through some quirk of fate have ended up on the wrong side of a line on the map.
Of course its an invasion, the parts where given away by the authorities at the time and the country as is recognized under law. The majority of said country, and also the particular parts don't want Russia's help.

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But if you want to look at invaders you should look at our own actions such as in Iraq!
Yes it was an invasion, carried out with various excuses to make it legal under international law. On top of that the vast majority of that country s recognised under international law (60% Shia, 20% Kurd) wanted Saddam and his brutal government gone.

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Now that was an invasion with a truly terrible outcome!
No it was a fantastic outcome that was going ahead far better than I expected. The country was stumbling along nicely trying to find its feet in an democratic environment. That was till some d!ckhead got into the white house and f@#cked it all up.

This was not helped by all the people, who for all intents and purposes are terrorist sympathizers, or could accused of giving aid and comfort to the enemy, by wishing that the extreme minority should be running the country.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 11:36   #51 (permalink)
 
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rh200, Iraq going well, ha ha ha! Don't make me laugh. Two of my army friends who both served there told me they thought the whole thing was nothing but a total waste of time and that our actions made things far worse. In their words it was a war we should have never carried out.
It was not going well when we were there and has fallen apart more since we left. Not exactly as if we would want to keep forces there forever is it! That's the only reason the so called Afghan government will continue due to some US forces remaining, if they ever leave it will all fall apart to.
Compared to what we did in Iraq what Putin has done in Ukraine is nothing and I mean nothing! You really need to look at things more carefully than you currently do.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 11:47   #52 (permalink)
 
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Polls are quite a lot more believable than some self-selected set of friends of a person with a particular world view. Would that person have many friends that disagree with them anyhow? Where's the greater bias likely to be? This has been said before of course.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 12:30   #53 (permalink)
 
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Compared to what we did in Iraq
What exactly is that Ronald, free 80% of the population? I suppose you would feel that way about Ukraine as suppressing the majority with violence seems to be what your happy with.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 12:33   #54 (permalink)
 
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It's curious that you appear to have 'friends' in every part of the world up for discussion here Ronald, and that they all endorse your own particular viewpoints.

I've no doubt that if I were to offer some comment on Putin's military build-up in the Far North, for instance, you would retort that you have Eskimo friends who positively welcome Russian bomber overflights.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 12:40   #55 (permalink)
 
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Free the population?! You mean remove the things that protected the majority of the population such as the state itself, the military and security forces, smash huge amounts of their infrastructure, kill loads of people, likely in the hundreds of thousands or higher and all of this results in the strengthening of Al Qaeda like groups who were the exact enemy the war on terror was supposed to be fighting against! Saddam would have been able to fight them off but we removed him, Assad seems to be holding his own but western leaders wanted to remove him to. Similar groups exist in Libya thanks to us, Gaddafi would have been able to destroy such groups had we not attacked and removed him. Western foreign policy seems to lurch from one disaster to another.
The war on terror has been a total failure actually helping and spreading the groups it was supposed to destroy!
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 12:44   #56 (permalink)
 
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Mel, more and more people can see through the lies of the western elite. The US government and its collection of western puppet regimes/governments which is sadly what they/we have become.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 12:57   #57 (permalink)
 
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Can't argue with you on the gist of that Ronald. The difference though is that most of us here can see that our leaders are far from perfect and we question and criticise their (in)actions, whereas your arguments lack credibility as you seem to slavishly applaud and cheer-on Putin regardless of his actions.
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 13:00   #58 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by melmothtw View Post
It's curious that you appear to have 'friends' in every part of the world up for discussion here Ronald, and that they all endorse your own particular viewpoints.

I've no doubt that if I were to offer some comment on Putin's military build-up in the Far North, for instance, you would retort that you have Eskimo friends who positively welcome Russian bomber overflights.
Mel, I would not bother arguing with RR even if you have a very valid point. He is not military aircrew or a 'backroom' enabler and seems to use the mil forum to express his erratic political views, indulge in fantasy subjects or even play fantasy friends. He is not worth your time; indeed, he only seeks to waste it.

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Old 18th Jun 2014, 13:04   #59 (permalink)
 
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Yes, against my better judgement I do keep biting. Must resist....
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Old 18th Jun 2014, 13:06   #60 (permalink)
 
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Last time I looked, Iraq had not been added to the UK or become the next US state so I fail to see the comparison between it and Crimea.

The world has listened to Russian bullshit for many decades, but you know what, I don't read about the millions of people leaving their home countries to try to make better lives in Russia.
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