heads up, Eric brown on BBC 2
An amazing story about an amazing man. Very glad that I caught it.
One thing intrigued though, that he took Goering's claim that the Battle of Britain was a draw, and would have been a Luftwaffe victory had not Hitler wanted his airfleets for Barbarossa. I found this strange coming from an airman (Brown, not Goering).
Surely the job of the Luftwaffe was to achieve Air Superiority on behalf of the Kreigsmarine for its invasion fleet? It failed to do so and the invasion was postponed indefinitely, which is why the RAF (including some attached FAA pilots) celebrates a victory to this day.
Goering failed in this as he did in so much. I was surprised that Brown took his side, ...or was it the RN side that he took?
One thing intrigued though, that he took Goering's claim that the Battle of Britain was a draw, and would have been a Luftwaffe victory had not Hitler wanted his airfleets for Barbarossa. I found this strange coming from an airman (Brown, not Goering).
Surely the job of the Luftwaffe was to achieve Air Superiority on behalf of the Kreigsmarine for its invasion fleet? It failed to do so and the invasion was postponed indefinitely, which is why the RAF (including some attached FAA pilots) celebrates a victory to this day.
Goering failed in this as he did in so much. I was surprised that Brown took his side, ...or was it the RN side that he took?
I think you'll find that he agreed with the relative loss figures in the late stages of the battle that Goering quoted, which - if true - might have indicated less of a clear-cut victory than we often assume.
That's not the same as claiming a draw and certainly not suggesting some sort of alternate RN agenda.
That's not the same as claiming a draw and certainly not suggesting some sort of alternate RN agenda.
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Goering would never have conceded that the B of B was an outright victory for the the RAF, neither could he claim a victory for the Luftwaffe, so claiming it was a draw, was perhaps, a face saving alternative.
Battle of Britain-losses
I think the final figures were around 1800 aircraft lost by the Luftwaffe and 1100 by the RAF, so if you look at simple figures.....
Of course Goering's 'draw' may be a reflection of the realisation of the horrific tactical mistakes he made during those months...
BTW I thought Capt Brown was initially a RAFVR officer, hence the picture of him in light blue. His switch to the RN was due to the RN needing pilots at the time and apparently the RAF not?
What a fantastic man, and it remains a mystery why he has never had more honours than he has, considering what some get them for these days.
Of course Goering's 'draw' may be a reflection of the realisation of the horrific tactical mistakes he made during those months...
BTW I thought Capt Brown was initially a RAFVR officer, hence the picture of him in light blue. His switch to the RN was due to the RN needing pilots at the time and apparently the RAF not?
What a fantastic man, and it remains a mystery why he has never had more honours than he has, considering what some get them for these days.
I have heard Capt Brown speak, and he not only quoted Goering's opinion that the B of B was a draw, but clearly stated that he agreed with him. I thought it was a bit strange given that the occasion was a Battle of Britain Dinner in an RAF Officers' Mess.
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I have an excellent book, "War Prizes", signed by Eric Brown. The author is Phil Butler and it is a Midland Counties Publication.
It is very well illustrated and covers all of the axis aircraft captured and tested both during, and immediately after WW2.
It is very well illustrated and covers all of the axis aircraft captured and tested both during, and immediately after WW2.
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If you take own goals out of it, the Luftwaffe should have won 3-1! imo a reasonable conclusion, taking relevant national pride out of it, would be GBR 3 - GER 3 with GBR winning 4-2 on penalties.
Aren't we in danger of basing our judgements on Goering's premiss, that predicted relative loss rates were the determinant? The RAF's fight was a fight for survival, it survived. The Luftwaffe's fight was to achieve Air Superiority, if not Air Supremacy, it didn't.
What it did achieve was to lose so many aircraft, and more damagingly so many aircrew, that its real fight for survival on the Eastern Front was fatally compromised. On both counts the Luftwaffe lost (0-1).
What it did achieve was to lose so many aircraft, and more damagingly so many aircrew, that its real fight for survival on the Eastern Front was fatally compromised. On both counts the Luftwaffe lost (0-1).
Very enjoyable programme, though as I've read 'Wings On My Sleeve' I don't think there was anything new. I have met Captain Brown when I bought the book, which he was kind enough to sign, and he is a true gent.
Anyone else think that if the Miles M.52 had not been cancelled he would have have been assigned the job of taking it through the sound barrier? I think he was the only Brit to fly the Me 163, so I'm sure he would have been.
Anyone else think that if the Miles M.52 had not been cancelled he would have have been assigned the job of taking it through the sound barrier? I think he was the only Brit to fly the Me 163, so I'm sure he would have been.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Chug
I take your points, but I feel the issue is that if the Luftwaffe had not abruptly called off the BoB when they did (because of H wanting the Russian front) then things could easily have finished up with many of our airfields being inop resulting in a a very different result.
That is what it seemed to me the programme suggested was behind Goering's remark and Eric's agreement. Living as I did at Hastings under the BoB I have no trouble believing the Luftwaffe stopped rather than were beaten.
That said I fully accept that if the RAF had not performed as well as they did it would have been all over for us in the air about 2/3 the way though the BoB period.
JF
I take your points, but I feel the issue is that if the Luftwaffe had not abruptly called off the BoB when they did (because of H wanting the Russian front) then things could easily have finished up with many of our airfields being inop resulting in a a very different result.
That is what it seemed to me the programme suggested was behind Goering's remark and Eric's agreement. Living as I did at Hastings under the BoB I have no trouble believing the Luftwaffe stopped rather than were beaten.
That said I fully accept that if the RAF had not performed as well as they did it would have been all over for us in the air about 2/3 the way though the BoB period.
JF
The 1 hour programme was too short to do his career justice, but what with the dumbed down offerings these days, I'm grateful that it was on at all. Just a couple of the 'events' that he experienced would do for most, but his incredible, almost Forrest Gump like life had them in spades and he's still looking and sounding damned good for almost 100 not out.
Lots of ifs there John, but I take your main point that the Luftwaffe withdrew rather than being simply defeated, but in doing so they conceded the field and hence the game. Hence our victory. Think of all the other ifs;
Dunkirk if Hitler had not stopped the panzers.
D-Day if Hitler had not stopped the panzers!
Kursk if Stalin had again rejected our warnings.
Bismark if that lucky hit on the rudder had missed its mark.
Tirpitz if that lucky hit at the bow had missed its mark.
Such are the fortunes of war. If ifs and buts...It's just that there seems to me to be an open season on the RAF of WW2, be it in Kent, Berlin or Arnhem. Only the Brits can turn triumph into defeat if the internecine warfare is bitter enough. So much water, so many bridges...
Dunkirk if Hitler had not stopped the panzers.
D-Day if Hitler had not stopped the panzers!
Kursk if Stalin had again rejected our warnings.
Bismark if that lucky hit on the rudder had missed its mark.
Tirpitz if that lucky hit at the bow had missed its mark.
Such are the fortunes of war. If ifs and buts...It's just that there seems to me to be an open season on the RAF of WW2, be it in Kent, Berlin or Arnhem. Only the Brits can turn triumph into defeat if the internecine warfare is bitter enough. So much water, so many bridges...
As Napoleon said - something like, don't tell me how good a general he is,"Give me lucky generals," aware that "luck" comes to leaders who recognize opportunity, and seize it
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Hi Spag. Monster, my father is one, he is 90 this year and still going strong, not had contact with each other for many years but were quite good friends at one time , so I expect there a few around still
Re the RAF uniform, according to Wikipedia he learnt to fly in 1937 in Edinburgh with the university Air Unit and I assumed the photo was from that era. It also says that on his return from Germany he joined the RNVR as a FAA pilot. I can't find my copy of Wings on My Sleeve to check
