Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
More eye candy for those with impeccable taste. Our old friend 179 with yours truly doing the 'three clear' bit' somewhere warm and humid. But apart from Korea or Japan in the winter all our trips were warm and humid !
Smudge,
your Morris Oxford in the nicest 'K' colour scheme reminds me of the time I was on 92 with Hunters. The OC had an Aston Martin in a very fetching scheme of ground equipment blue. not one that was in the Aston palette. This car had a number plate of OC 92 (or was it CO 92 ?)and was handed on to each successive boss. Wonder if the car still exists or even the plate. Both would be worth real money !
your Morris Oxford in the nicest 'K' colour scheme reminds me of the time I was on 92 with Hunters. The OC had an Aston Martin in a very fetching scheme of ground equipment blue. not one that was in the Aston palette. This car had a number plate of OC 92 (or was it CO 92 ?)and was handed on to each successive boss. Wonder if the car still exists or even the plate. Both would be worth real money !
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Our old friend 179
I joined the fleet much later, when the simple 3 word title was in vogue! AA62, we certainly know one another....
Trumpet Trousers,
good spot. It says Air support Command me thinks. Yet it was in a batch of my FEAF slides ! We were FEAF right up to the end I am sure and remember being bollocked by Lyneham for taxying too fast when we brought an a/c home. We were always trying to beat the duty free beer cut off at Changi
Creek. So we either borrowed an a/c for one of the joint exercises or this was taken just after we came home. I must still be on 48 as I am wearing the my red squadron scarf. (still got it but it has been recycled as a windscreen cleaner).
Still looks hot and humid though.
If you PM me we can compare notes and see if we do know each other.
good spot. It says Air support Command me thinks. Yet it was in a batch of my FEAF slides ! We were FEAF right up to the end I am sure and remember being bollocked by Lyneham for taxying too fast when we brought an a/c home. We were always trying to beat the duty free beer cut off at Changi
Creek. So we either borrowed an a/c for one of the joint exercises or this was taken just after we came home. I must still be on 48 as I am wearing the my red squadron scarf. (still got it but it has been recycled as a windscreen cleaner).
Still looks hot and humid though.
If you PM me we can compare notes and see if we do know each other.
Colour schemes and Clashes
When we went from the, obviously, beloved s*** and custard to green and grey, if memory serves, we ran a Masirah schedule out of Lyneham. Am I alone in remembering the one that called for an engine change in Masirah? Unfortunately, nobody had apparently thought about the down-route stock of engines and all those in Masirah were SandC - sick Albert was GandG.
There was nothing to be done but change the engine producing a very weird effect and on its return to LYE that Albert (at OC Eng's insistence) was confined to the circuit until uniformity prevailed. Somebody must have a picture somewhere!
There was nothing to be done but change the engine producing a very weird effect and on its return to LYE that Albert (at OC Eng's insistence) was confined to the circuit until uniformity prevailed. Somebody must have a picture somewhere!
AA62,
The 92 Squadron, Bluemobile, sounds good, and very fitting. My Oxford was painted on the conventional lines of the car, the log book said it was Rose Taupe/ White, it ended up Light Stone and Dark Earth, with a white top and Gloss black sills etc. we had quite a few variations, I remember an Engines Sgt who had a Ford Anglia, and he went the whole hog, with full camo layout (including Roundels), and the front half of the roof painted white. How any of us got away with it goodness knows, I do believe that Colerne Painters tea swindle was awash with beer money though.
Smudge
The 92 Squadron, Bluemobile, sounds good, and very fitting. My Oxford was painted on the conventional lines of the car, the log book said it was Rose Taupe/ White, it ended up Light Stone and Dark Earth, with a white top and Gloss black sills etc. we had quite a few variations, I remember an Engines Sgt who had a Ford Anglia, and he went the whole hog, with full camo layout (including Roundels), and the front half of the roof painted white. How any of us got away with it goodness knows, I do believe that Colerne Painters tea swindle was awash with beer money though.
Smudge
Tanker trivia
My apologies for joining the debate on the tanker strakes so late but I have only just seen the thread on the forum. As one of the four G.E,s who were selected to go to Marham to do the HDU course even before a HDU had been fitted to Albert, I was in the position to follow the early days of the conversion and operation of the tankers both during the build and the first days of operation in ASI.
We departed to Marham on a fortnights detachment to do the HDU course, both Prop and Leckies side of it each of which was a two week course. Even my maths worked out that both courses wouldn't fit into two weeks so we were allowed to pick and choose which bits we thought relevant so we left out most of the specific Victor airframe bits and ended up with the HDU "Q ". Before we left the Ground School we helped the remove the training HDU, a MK 17, from their classroom for it to go back to Flight Refuelling for refurbishment and updating for it to be fitted to a later Herc!
On finishing at Marham we decanted to Cambridge for a night stop, not four star I'm afraid, and then spent a day at Marshalls as they were carrying out the fit of the first aircraft. The degree of suck it and see involved in the fit was apparent in that Marshalls had not been given any information on the specific requirements to operate the HDU,e.g., Air supply pressure and temp, fuel supply pressure etc. they were going to plumb it straight into the bleed air system and the fuel dump lines , both of which were at too high a pressure and would trip all the pressure switches in the relevant systems and the bleed air temp would also trip everything off which is why you could see air intakes and intercoolers plumbed in. We left them some photocopies of our course paperwork which I believe was about all they ever had to work with.
At a later date we went back to Cambridge for an update on the fit and trials during which we were shown the films Marshalls took of the initial deployment trials of the hose and drogue. It was a result of these trials that the scoop to assist the deployment of the hose was introduced as the hose was rather reluctant to leave the stowed position. It was also as a result of these trials that the strakes were introduced as on the first deployments the drogue and hose slid up the cargo door and flailed around the duck bill causing quite a bit of damage and did not drop away into the correct refuelling trail position. It appeared that the airflow around the ramp and door sucked the hose back up along the door until the strakes were fitted to redirect the airflow and allow the hose to drop away. Marshalls had asked Lockheed for info on the airflow around that area with regard to deploying a hose and Lockheed had said when you find out let us know! There was no structural element to the strakes, purely airflow.
As for the agricultural style of the build this possibly truer than one might think as during the first trips at ASI there were failures to transfer fuel from the internal tanks to the main tanks which would only happen when airborne and depressurised. This was traced to lengths of fuel hose used in the internal tank vent system collapsing due to the pumps used to transfer the fuel causing a depression in the tanks greater than the rigidity of the hose could cope with. We decided that the fix was to reduce the length of unsupported hose and contacted Lyneham to send us some of the rigid pipe they had used in the initial build, The reply was that we already had some, they had cut up lengths of the Highway staging used to service the aircraft and used that and what is more it did the trick beautifully and cured that problem.
There are a number of other examples of the ways this was built and operated which would normally would have people screaming and running for the hills which I could relate but what was a rushed task went on to serve its purpose for many years, another example of the Labours of Hercules. (Apologies to Air International for pinching their article title)
We departed to Marham on a fortnights detachment to do the HDU course, both Prop and Leckies side of it each of which was a two week course. Even my maths worked out that both courses wouldn't fit into two weeks so we were allowed to pick and choose which bits we thought relevant so we left out most of the specific Victor airframe bits and ended up with the HDU "Q ". Before we left the Ground School we helped the remove the training HDU, a MK 17, from their classroom for it to go back to Flight Refuelling for refurbishment and updating for it to be fitted to a later Herc!
On finishing at Marham we decanted to Cambridge for a night stop, not four star I'm afraid, and then spent a day at Marshalls as they were carrying out the fit of the first aircraft. The degree of suck it and see involved in the fit was apparent in that Marshalls had not been given any information on the specific requirements to operate the HDU,e.g., Air supply pressure and temp, fuel supply pressure etc. they were going to plumb it straight into the bleed air system and the fuel dump lines , both of which were at too high a pressure and would trip all the pressure switches in the relevant systems and the bleed air temp would also trip everything off which is why you could see air intakes and intercoolers plumbed in. We left them some photocopies of our course paperwork which I believe was about all they ever had to work with.
At a later date we went back to Cambridge for an update on the fit and trials during which we were shown the films Marshalls took of the initial deployment trials of the hose and drogue. It was a result of these trials that the scoop to assist the deployment of the hose was introduced as the hose was rather reluctant to leave the stowed position. It was also as a result of these trials that the strakes were introduced as on the first deployments the drogue and hose slid up the cargo door and flailed around the duck bill causing quite a bit of damage and did not drop away into the correct refuelling trail position. It appeared that the airflow around the ramp and door sucked the hose back up along the door until the strakes were fitted to redirect the airflow and allow the hose to drop away. Marshalls had asked Lockheed for info on the airflow around that area with regard to deploying a hose and Lockheed had said when you find out let us know! There was no structural element to the strakes, purely airflow.
As for the agricultural style of the build this possibly truer than one might think as during the first trips at ASI there were failures to transfer fuel from the internal tanks to the main tanks which would only happen when airborne and depressurised. This was traced to lengths of fuel hose used in the internal tank vent system collapsing due to the pumps used to transfer the fuel causing a depression in the tanks greater than the rigidity of the hose could cope with. We decided that the fix was to reduce the length of unsupported hose and contacted Lyneham to send us some of the rigid pipe they had used in the initial build, The reply was that we already had some, they had cut up lengths of the Highway staging used to service the aircraft and used that and what is more it did the trick beautifully and cured that problem.
There are a number of other examples of the ways this was built and operated which would normally would have people screaming and running for the hills which I could relate but what was a rushed task went on to serve its purpose for many years, another example of the Labours of Hercules. (Apologies to Air International for pinching their article title)
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Talking about colour schemes; way back in the mid-70s, at Dulles, we were being driven out to the aircraft by the grumpy crew-coach driver who I'm sure you remember. There were two Alberts sitting there, one in each scheme.
He turned to us and said 'Which one of these do y'all want - the Green Dragon, or the Mud Puppy? '
He turned to us and said 'Which one of these do y'all want - the Green Dragon, or the Mud Puppy? '
Gopher 01,
Interesting that GEs were involved in the initial fit of the HDU to Albert. Like you, I did a Q-HDU course (at BZN nor Marham), but, apart from a couple of tanker rotations to MPA never flew on a tanker. Unless FARPING could classed as tanking
Kilwhang,
I reckon I prefer "Mud Puppy" to S**t and Custard. Do you remember if 70 operated in that colour scheme when we were at Akrotiri, I actually flew to Malta with them once, but can't remember.
Smudge
Interesting that GEs were involved in the initial fit of the HDU to Albert. Like you, I did a Q-HDU course (at BZN nor Marham), but, apart from a couple of tanker rotations to MPA never flew on a tanker. Unless FARPING could classed as tanking
Kilwhang,
I reckon I prefer "Mud Puppy" to S**t and Custard. Do you remember if 70 operated in that colour scheme when we were at Akrotiri, I actually flew to Malta with them once, but can't remember.
Smudge
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There was no structural element to the strakes, purely airflow
)Ah yes, the happy days of ASI tanker dets, Trivial Pursuit on the outbound leg, freezing yer 'nads off during the transfer, the essential components to successfully re-pressurize after the transfer (kimwipe and a cold water flask...) and the welcome orange dot on the radar after the trek back home...
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"IIRC, they were made from wood, (or was I just smoking something?? )"
Could well have been. The ventral strake fitted to the first Nimrod R1 with a refuelling probe was made of wood.
S-D
)"Could well have been. The ventral strake fitted to the first Nimrod R1 with a refuelling probe was made of wood.
S-D
gopher01,
thank you for the very full explanation of the initial tanker fit to the 'K' and confirming my belief that the strakes on the door were aerodynamic (and wooden).
As you say very 'suck it and see' as it had never been done before on a Hercules. So not surprising that Lockheeds did not know. The USMC tankers use wing pods and a ro-ro system for the fuselage tanks. In the time available this option was not open to Marshalls and I believe the firm that made the USMC tanks said we could have some in 18 months.
I understand that Lockheeds were also asked for fatigue data for operating the tanking at the max overload weight, which was 20000 lbs over the normal TOW.
As we intended doing this on a regular basis Lockheeds, understandably, did not want to know.
I was also told that initially the HDU panel was supposed to be bolted onto the forward face of the HDU for the ALM to operate, but because the 'spare' Nav on the Victor did the job, it was positioned above the Nav station on the 'K'. This would chime with the famous fitting of the emergency exit door on the VC10 tankers at great expense. There were other Marham 'irritations' !
thank you for the very full explanation of the initial tanker fit to the 'K' and confirming my belief that the strakes on the door were aerodynamic (and wooden).
As you say very 'suck it and see' as it had never been done before on a Hercules. So not surprising that Lockheeds did not know. The USMC tankers use wing pods and a ro-ro system for the fuselage tanks. In the time available this option was not open to Marshalls and I believe the firm that made the USMC tanks said we could have some in 18 months.
I understand that Lockheeds were also asked for fatigue data for operating the tanking at the max overload weight, which was 20000 lbs over the normal TOW.
As we intended doing this on a regular basis Lockheeds, understandably, did not want to know.
I was also told that initially the HDU panel was supposed to be bolted onto the forward face of the HDU for the ALM to operate, but because the 'spare' Nav on the Victor did the job, it was positioned above the Nav station on the 'K'. This would chime with the famous fitting of the emergency exit door on the VC10 tankers at great expense. There were other Marham 'irritations' !
TT,
yes kimwipe and the broom handle were no go items on the tanker. Much fun could also be had persuading the safety valve to close after the tank, not to mention the ice flakes flicking around inside as the hose rewound. Happy days.
yes kimwipe and the broom handle were no go items on the tanker. Much fun could also be had persuading the safety valve to close after the tank, not to mention the ice flakes flicking around inside as the hose rewound. Happy days.
The mention of the Command names reminds me of an old query - did any RAF Hercules carry the old 'Transport Command' title? I know the aircraft entered service at about (or just after) Transport changed to Air Support, but I wonder if any of the trials aircraft carried the title or (more relevant to the thread perhaps!) there were any 'unofficial' applications?
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Gopher,
Great post at #979. It was certainly a busy time. I love the scaffold pole tale. I am sure it is true. I have similar tales of scaffold poles being used in other areas (helicopters).
SD - I am not altogether sure if the wooden strake on the R was cased in fibre glass at RAE Bedford. I know they made the plinth for the OMEGA aerial that was fitted in the same vicinity and about the same era. - it may have been after hostilities ceased. As I noted in a previous post the stakes got bigger and additional stabilisers were added to the tail plane in time.
Going back to aerodynamics and the flow around the back of the aircraft: This topic remains a black art. I served a NATO Ctee for a while. we had a UK "Expert" lets call him "Slippery". He was charged to investigate the use of CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) the topic was parachute deployment. I am not sure how much was spent, but it was a serious amount of the AWC budget. Did it help? Did it hell as like. Could not predict anything with any certainty. Slippery left the RAF to run off with his French bird several years ago but he did well out of this project with a licence to travel the globe to every academic establishment dealing in CFD. My boss referred to him as Judith (Chalmers of Wish you were here fame). It was always suck it and see. We spent a fortune on trials to establish cross over on Sim Sticks with the LLP. Analysis of video was best. As I understand things the technique of lowering the undercarriage on the A400M in an effort to straighten things out for airdrop and para was not as a result of any CFD. I may be wrong but that's what I was told.
Great post at #979. It was certainly a busy time. I love the scaffold pole tale. I am sure it is true. I have similar tales of scaffold poles being used in other areas (helicopters).
SD - I am not altogether sure if the wooden strake on the R was cased in fibre glass at RAE Bedford. I know they made the plinth for the OMEGA aerial that was fitted in the same vicinity and about the same era. - it may have been after hostilities ceased. As I noted in a previous post the stakes got bigger and additional stabilisers were added to the tail plane in time.
Going back to aerodynamics and the flow around the back of the aircraft: This topic remains a black art. I served a NATO Ctee for a while. we had a UK "Expert" lets call him "Slippery". He was charged to investigate the use of CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) the topic was parachute deployment. I am not sure how much was spent, but it was a serious amount of the AWC budget. Did it help? Did it hell as like. Could not predict anything with any certainty. Slippery left the RAF to run off with his French bird several years ago but he did well out of this project with a licence to travel the globe to every academic establishment dealing in CFD. My boss referred to him as Judith (Chalmers of Wish you were here fame). It was always suck it and see. We spent a fortune on trials to establish cross over on Sim Sticks with the LLP. Analysis of video was best. As I understand things the technique of lowering the undercarriage on the A400M in an effort to straighten things out for airdrop and para was not as a result of any CFD. I may be wrong but that's what I was told.
Davef68,
good question ref the command titles. I still have my 'K' course notes (8 Course) which are headed 'Royal Air Force Transport Command '. I also have, somewhere, a print of the pic commissioned for the intro of the Herc into RAF service and am convinced that says 'Royal Air Force Transport Command'. Must try to find it. But whether any of the a/c were so marked I cannot remember. There must be a pic somewhere.
good question ref the command titles. I still have my 'K' course notes (8 Course) which are headed 'Royal Air Force Transport Command '. I also have, somewhere, a print of the pic commissioned for the intro of the Herc into RAF service and am convinced that says 'Royal Air Force Transport Command'. Must try to find it. But whether any of the a/c were so marked I cannot remember. There must be a pic somewhere.
dragartist, ref your problems with the LLP, we always had problems with para crossover with the PX and the 22 ft from the side doors. We were bombarded with wizzo suggestions from above none of which took into account the runaway train that was an operational para drop.
Ref the airflow round the rear this was also a problem when we came to develop the 'snatch' for use down south. Pics along later.
Ref the airflow round the rear this was also a problem when we came to develop the 'snatch' for use down south. Pics along later.
Transport Command/Air Support Command
According to sources such as Wiki, Transport Command succumbed to Air Support Command in 1967. Now, I'm convinced I saw Alberts on jacks at Colerne around 1971 with Transport Command annotated on the fuselage. Perhaps my dementia is winning
AA62 #921,
Something in the background reminds me of Florida, but just a niggle.
Smudge
AA62 #921,
Something in the background reminds me of Florida, but just a niggle.
Smudge
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AA62,
Tanks! Tanks, that is the answer! I have no doubt that the under wing tanks should have been fitted to the J to begin with. that would straighten things out just a little. and we all know every little helps. On cross over; the long J was as good as the short K, or was it the other way round?
I don't recall 22ft going out of the side doors in my time. Always out the back following boats or on the water course.
Look forward to seeing the snatch pics. I think I did see something like this in the archives at JATE years ago. VX275 sent me some Beverly similar sounding stuff a while back.
Tanks! Tanks, that is the answer! I have no doubt that the under wing tanks should have been fitted to the J to begin with. that would straighten things out just a little. and we all know every little helps. On cross over; the long J was as good as the short K, or was it the other way round?
I don't recall 22ft going out of the side doors in my time. Always out the back following boats or on the water course.
Look forward to seeing the snatch pics. I think I did see something like this in the archives at JATE years ago. VX275 sent me some Beverly similar sounding stuff a while back.
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Drag
The ventral fin on the first of the probe equipped R1s was definitely made of wood. This was the R1 that had the pipework (bowser hose) coming down through the flight deck and into the floor just forward of the Nav's bench. The pipework also came out of the fuselage under the wing and reentered a few feet further back using two right angles and more bowser hose. I think that was 664, that had the first fit. Subsequent aircraft had a more professional fit with a fibreglass ventral fin and also the additional fins on the horizontal stabilisers. The first aircraft did not have those.
Anyway, back to the Herc!
S-D
The ventral fin on the first of the probe equipped R1s was definitely made of wood. This was the R1 that had the pipework (bowser hose) coming down through the flight deck and into the floor just forward of the Nav's bench. The pipework also came out of the fuselage under the wing and reentered a few feet further back using two right angles and more bowser hose. I think that was 664, that had the first fit. Subsequent aircraft had a more professional fit with a fibreglass ventral fin and also the additional fins on the horizontal stabilisers. The first aircraft did not have those.
Anyway, back to the Herc!
S-D