“Snap Crackle Pop” : Fast Jet HF R/T Question
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“Snap Crackle Pop” : Fast Jet HF R/T Question
Good evening all ...
Long before ALE (Automated Link Establishment) technology became the standard method of achieving consistent/reliable long distance/over the horizon HF comms for Mil and Civil aircraft, how effective was the HF comms fitted on our FJ’s in the early 70's ?
I believe the Phantom F4-M (FGR.2) and the Buccaneer had HF USB kit fitted which operated between 2-30 Mhz which was connected to a Shunt Aerial located on the leading edge of the tail fin at it’s root with the fuselage.
I believe the Phantom & Buccaneer HF Box would have been similar to this type (Mil Collins).
So going back to the Phantom and Buccaneer, after you had waded through the HF Prediction/Sun Sport tables in the FIH, selected the expected “best” frequency for the time of day/month, could you easily work Architect 2 Way ? Or was it a right pain ?
I believe the Tornado F3 had HF in the Nav’s rear cockpit but I guess that may have been ALE enabled ?
The Tornado F3 HF Box.
I was always fascinated by those tables in the AIDU FIH … not much use in a Chipmunk though !
Still interesting to see that there is still a place for HF Mil Aviation Comms in today's world of SatComms and other tech.
Of course ... if anyone has some amusing stories relating to HF usage ... don't feel constrained to share
Best ...
Coff.
Long before ALE (Automated Link Establishment) technology became the standard method of achieving consistent/reliable long distance/over the horizon HF comms for Mil and Civil aircraft, how effective was the HF comms fitted on our FJ’s in the early 70's ?
I believe the Phantom F4-M (FGR.2) and the Buccaneer had HF USB kit fitted which operated between 2-30 Mhz which was connected to a Shunt Aerial located on the leading edge of the tail fin at it’s root with the fuselage.
I believe the Phantom & Buccaneer HF Box would have been similar to this type (Mil Collins).
So going back to the Phantom and Buccaneer, after you had waded through the HF Prediction/Sun Sport tables in the FIH, selected the expected “best” frequency for the time of day/month, could you easily work Architect 2 Way ? Or was it a right pain ?
I believe the Tornado F3 had HF in the Nav’s rear cockpit but I guess that may have been ALE enabled ?
The Tornado F3 HF Box.
I was always fascinated by those tables in the AIDU FIH … not much use in a Chipmunk though !
Still interesting to see that there is still a place for HF Mil Aviation Comms in today's world of SatComms and other tech.
Of course ... if anyone has some amusing stories relating to HF usage ... don't feel constrained to share
Best ...
Coff.
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Coffman,
I am starting to appreciate that you are a mind of wondurful, information.
As to your question, I have no idea what you are talking about
But I look forward to the tales.
I am starting to appreciate that you are a mind of wondurful, information.
As to your question, I have no idea what you are talking about
But I look forward to the tales.
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Tom ...
Some might say otherwise ... it's an interest that started as a school boy (40 years ago) who helped get a delapated 1154/1155 (Lanc HF Radio) to work
That's one of these (but not as smart looking) ...
Had to make a few connectors in metalwork ...
Some might say otherwise ... it's an interest that started as a school boy (40 years ago) who helped get a delapated 1154/1155 (Lanc HF Radio) to work
That's one of these (but not as smart looking) ...
Had to make a few connectors in metalwork ...
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 1st Sep 2013 at 21:24.
The HF in the F4 actually worked really well. For QRA missions way up north (even further north than the Watford Gap Service Station!) it was a great piece of kit.
Best use I ever saw (well, heard, really) it put to was my wingman during a transit from ASI to the UK. Still in the ITCZ, he called up Architect and asked for a phone patch to his girlfriend's house to wish her a happy birthday and tell her he was on his way home. Hardly a private phone call, but we all enjoyed it all the same. She had a little difficulty getting the hang of not both both being able to speak at the same time, but once that was mastered the conversation flowed nicely. She didn't realize the whole world could hear until the next Sqn party. Wonderful Alison.
Best use I ever saw (well, heard, really) it put to was my wingman during a transit from ASI to the UK. Still in the ITCZ, he called up Architect and asked for a phone patch to his girlfriend's house to wish her a happy birthday and tell her he was on his way home. Hardly a private phone call, but we all enjoyed it all the same. She had a little difficulty getting the hang of not both both being able to speak at the same time, but once that was mastered the conversation flowed nicely. She didn't realize the whole world could hear until the next Sqn party. Wonderful Alison.
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Love it, these stories are compelling, the RT thread was brilliant, put a very human side to the business. Ok, humour this ex blunty "Architect" , I'm assuming a comms station!
Last edited by TomJoad; 1st Sep 2013 at 21:32.
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Tornado GR1 had hf with the shunt under the black lower leading edge of the fin but it was disabled due to concerns over
1. wiggly tailerons
and
2. buckets of sunshine.
Once watched a German IDS wiggle its bits whilst parked in one of the TTTE rects hangar at Cottesmore. The fact that the electrical power input to the hangar could make those tailerons dance wasn't lost to either the aircrew or us simpleton maintainers.
And don't bother about the weekend ejecting ADR's either, ok.
1. wiggly tailerons
and
2. buckets of sunshine.
Once watched a German IDS wiggle its bits whilst parked in one of the TTTE rects hangar at Cottesmore. The fact that the electrical power input to the hangar could make those tailerons dance wasn't lost to either the aircrew or us simpleton maintainers.
And don't bother about the weekend ejecting ADR's either, ok.
Last edited by glad rag; 1st Sep 2013 at 21:48. Reason: As for the A£*) HF shunts in tranche one...
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Coffman I can appreciate the interest there - always wanted to get into ham radio but back in the day, without internet, we were clueless as to where to start. NASA run a programme where schools can talk to the ISS using Ham radio kit - you need an RT operators licence but it would be cool.
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Not a FJ but a Seaking, HF Phonepatch, Falklands to North Yorkshire via Portishead Radio. The clarity of the call was amazing.
West Falkland to Mount Pleasant was crap.
"Portishead Radio, Portishead Radio, Portishead Radio, this is Helicopter 41 Alpha............."
West Falkland to Mount Pleasant was crap.
"Portishead Radio, Portishead Radio, Portishead Radio, this is Helicopter 41 Alpha............."
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Tom ...
Your homework for tonight old chap
MilComm RAF HF Flight Watch
Other info sources are out there on the web ...
Best ...
Coff.
PS. Edit the ******** out the URL and change .co.uk to .com
Or just Google "RAF Flight Watch"
Sorry but BS doesn't like being hot linked
Your homework for tonight old chap
MilComm RAF HF Flight Watch
Other info sources are out there on the web ...
Best ...
Coff.
PS. Edit the ******** out the URL and change .co.uk to .com
Or just Google "RAF Flight Watch"
Sorry but BS doesn't like being hot linked
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 2nd Sep 2013 at 12:28.
Portihead Radio was great...
.....a certain flt eng on a Nimrod was talking to his wife on the back home across the pond. She had similar probs re the "when you've finished speaking say over then it'll be my turn" routine as the lass that courtney mentioned.
She proceeded to tell him (and the portishead operator and the crew and anyone else on the freq) what she was going to do to him the moment he came through the door...
Embarrassed?
How we all laffed.
The Ancient Mariner
She proceeded to tell him (and the portishead operator and the crew and anyone else on the freq) what she was going to do to him the moment he came through the door...
Embarrassed?
How we all laffed.
The Ancient Mariner
Certainly not fast jet, so not sure if it qualifies.
I was a GE on Alberts and had just done a few weeks trying to get 1312 Flt at Mount Pleasant to accept delivery of their lovely new tanker, the crew who delivered it left me there to fix it and headed Northbound,on schedule, after 3 days. Finally I'm on my way home, having hitch hiked a ride on the routine C130 run. It's a long way (well time really, as its the same distance for all) in a C130 from MPA to ASI, so I asked if I could get a HF phone patch home to update Mrs Smuj on expected arrival (ensure milkman had fair warning etc). No problem said the boys, settling back and pretending they could hear nothing. I believe it was routed through ARINC, not Architect, which was of course the RAF HF Flightwatch as I remember, and when she answered I got straight in there and explained how it wasn't like a normal phone call, when she finished speaking, it would be best if she said "over" then switch on ears. Even 7000 miles away the slamming down of the handset was obvious to all on the aircraft. The Co pilot spilled his coffee finding it very amusing. Anyway, I did call home several times after that, but never tried to give Mrs Smuj instructions again.
Smudge
Apologies if its not fitting to the thread title, I will pull it on request. It does show the problems with HF use. I have a really good, true story of fixing HF "en route" that might raise a titter or two.
I was a GE on Alberts and had just done a few weeks trying to get 1312 Flt at Mount Pleasant to accept delivery of their lovely new tanker, the crew who delivered it left me there to fix it and headed Northbound,on schedule, after 3 days. Finally I'm on my way home, having hitch hiked a ride on the routine C130 run. It's a long way (well time really, as its the same distance for all) in a C130 from MPA to ASI, so I asked if I could get a HF phone patch home to update Mrs Smuj on expected arrival (ensure milkman had fair warning etc). No problem said the boys, settling back and pretending they could hear nothing. I believe it was routed through ARINC, not Architect, which was of course the RAF HF Flightwatch as I remember, and when she answered I got straight in there and explained how it wasn't like a normal phone call, when she finished speaking, it would be best if she said "over" then switch on ears. Even 7000 miles away the slamming down of the handset was obvious to all on the aircraft. The Co pilot spilled his coffee finding it very amusing. Anyway, I did call home several times after that, but never tried to give Mrs Smuj instructions again.
Smudge
Apologies if its not fitting to the thread title, I will pull it on request. It does show the problems with HF use. I have a really good, true story of fixing HF "en route" that might raise a titter or two.
Last edited by smujsmith; 1st Sep 2013 at 21:53.
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Dominie had a notch aerial in the roof and it was in the lap of the gods as to whether you'd get any comms in!
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Like it, do I get to say that the dog ate it!
So that's what it is for - makes sense now - I'm sure the phone patches weren't abused. Would have been interesting if they could have reversed the call. Where are you, when you going to be home
So that's what it is for - makes sense now - I'm sure the phone patches weren't abused. Would have been interesting if they could have reversed the call. Where are you, when you going to be home
Last edited by TomJoad; 1st Sep 2013 at 22:29.
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crap radio
I recall the passing of "ops normal" calls from low level around Malaysia in F4 days. We used HF via Upavon to contact Tengah, a mere 200 or so miles to the south. All very hit and miss. However, the social life provided a modicum of compensation for these rigours.
OK Coff,
I'm an old bloke now so memory might not be too good but, as an ex Airframe tradesman, my brief history of HF Radio technology of the RAF C130 in the early 1990s.
When I did my C130 Ground Engineers course, 1988, the important kit on the aircraft in respect of electronics was the Nav Kit. Loran, Omega, Doppler (F and C computers) come to mind. Little heed was given to dual systems, although, we did the study and duly passed the trade exams. Therefore most of the "comms kit" remained pretty much a mystery to me, as it was duplicated across the board. We had Two VHF, UHF and HF comms systems. You had to be very unlucky to lose both. I picked up one very interesting thing though. Alberts HF systems, are quite inscrutable. It's not just the "washing line" but what really does the biz is the Aerial tuning unit (ATU) that spoofs the system into believing it has an eight mile trailing antenna, not just the washing line. I do not need to know how it does this because, there are two HF systems and one will always work. However, over a few beers instructor informs me that, there's some contacts that whizz round, and move up and down a circular coil. When they stop, it relates to a proportional extension of the antenna, I even remember discussion of "sympathetic frequencies" etc. Apparently one problem it can suffer is the contact overshooting the coils, when certain frequencies are selected and then jamming. Making the ATU inoperative.
In my second year as a GE, I'm feeling that I've been very lucky, and not had a lot of broken bits to spoil my "world tour by hammock". So off I go to Nairobi, on a trip taking around 30 Coldstream Guardsmen to their exercises. The first night-stop at Akrotiri elicited no snags from the front end. I assisted the VASS lads to put Albert to bed and that was it. Second day and the plan was a fuel stop at Luxor for Nairobi. Just airborne out of Luxor, I'm woken from my slumbers by the Loadie, "flight deck, now, go". To be informed that we have no HF and could I please fix it. On asking how both systems had gone down at the same time, the Eng says that they lost HF1 shortly after leaving Lyneham. A pity they never mentioned that as there were loads of spares available at Akrotiri. Well, we had no ranger pack so no spares. Having discussed the problem with the crew, it was decided that the HF ATU was not tuning, what can I do? As I remember now, there were 14 of these coils, each had to be in a particular position, and were not interchangeable. I'm more than willing to be told I'm wrong on this, I'm recounting what I was told, not what was necessarily correct.
I hauled the HF1 ATU from its mounting in the roof and removed its cover. There were the 14 Coils. So we need a cunning GE plan, far better than only remove one at a time, to check them all out. By now, our Guardsmen were awake, and wondering why we were dismantling the aircraft. I had 14 of them stand in the same formation as the coils in the freight bay and removed each coil, handing them to the appropriate soldier. After cleaning the coil seats I refitted each coil, it was cleaned and the contact wound back to a mid setting along the coil. Once complete the assembly went back in the roof and the crew were asked to give it a go. Amazingly it worked, Selcal was OK again, and HF contact was reestablished with Architect. The nice thing was being able to go back down the freight bay and let the soldiers know that they had fixed the aircraft. They really were very pleased, and I'm sure had a story to tell their mates. I never had an HF snag down route after that when we didn't have a ranger pack, and spare ATU, but to this day I will remember 14 Coldstream Guardsmen standing rigidly to attention holding a small coil and wondering if they would arrive safely.
Smudge
I'm an old bloke now so memory might not be too good but, as an ex Airframe tradesman, my brief history of HF Radio technology of the RAF C130 in the early 1990s.
When I did my C130 Ground Engineers course, 1988, the important kit on the aircraft in respect of electronics was the Nav Kit. Loran, Omega, Doppler (F and C computers) come to mind. Little heed was given to dual systems, although, we did the study and duly passed the trade exams. Therefore most of the "comms kit" remained pretty much a mystery to me, as it was duplicated across the board. We had Two VHF, UHF and HF comms systems. You had to be very unlucky to lose both. I picked up one very interesting thing though. Alberts HF systems, are quite inscrutable. It's not just the "washing line" but what really does the biz is the Aerial tuning unit (ATU) that spoofs the system into believing it has an eight mile trailing antenna, not just the washing line. I do not need to know how it does this because, there are two HF systems and one will always work. However, over a few beers instructor informs me that, there's some contacts that whizz round, and move up and down a circular coil. When they stop, it relates to a proportional extension of the antenna, I even remember discussion of "sympathetic frequencies" etc. Apparently one problem it can suffer is the contact overshooting the coils, when certain frequencies are selected and then jamming. Making the ATU inoperative.
In my second year as a GE, I'm feeling that I've been very lucky, and not had a lot of broken bits to spoil my "world tour by hammock". So off I go to Nairobi, on a trip taking around 30 Coldstream Guardsmen to their exercises. The first night-stop at Akrotiri elicited no snags from the front end. I assisted the VASS lads to put Albert to bed and that was it. Second day and the plan was a fuel stop at Luxor for Nairobi. Just airborne out of Luxor, I'm woken from my slumbers by the Loadie, "flight deck, now, go". To be informed that we have no HF and could I please fix it. On asking how both systems had gone down at the same time, the Eng says that they lost HF1 shortly after leaving Lyneham. A pity they never mentioned that as there were loads of spares available at Akrotiri. Well, we had no ranger pack so no spares. Having discussed the problem with the crew, it was decided that the HF ATU was not tuning, what can I do? As I remember now, there were 14 of these coils, each had to be in a particular position, and were not interchangeable. I'm more than willing to be told I'm wrong on this, I'm recounting what I was told, not what was necessarily correct.
I hauled the HF1 ATU from its mounting in the roof and removed its cover. There were the 14 Coils. So we need a cunning GE plan, far better than only remove one at a time, to check them all out. By now, our Guardsmen were awake, and wondering why we were dismantling the aircraft. I had 14 of them stand in the same formation as the coils in the freight bay and removed each coil, handing them to the appropriate soldier. After cleaning the coil seats I refitted each coil, it was cleaned and the contact wound back to a mid setting along the coil. Once complete the assembly went back in the roof and the crew were asked to give it a go. Amazingly it worked, Selcal was OK again, and HF contact was reestablished with Architect. The nice thing was being able to go back down the freight bay and let the soldiers know that they had fixed the aircraft. They really were very pleased, and I'm sure had a story to tell their mates. I never had an HF snag down route after that when we didn't have a ranger pack, and spare ATU, but to this day I will remember 14 Coldstream Guardsmen standing rigidly to attention holding a small coil and wondering if they would arrive safely.
Smudge