Cheltenham Chuting
I wonder how long it will be before there is a clamouring to fit these to MoD light aircraft (Tutors, Vigilants, Vikings, etc...) when the next fatality occurs from a mid-air, loss of control, structural failure or such like?
A BRS installation could be beneficial as the installation is likely to weigh the same if not less than two B Mk 71. The servicing interval for a BRS is longer and its daily inspection would be part of the BF and not a seperate bit of paperwork.
The downside is the BRS uses a pyrotechnic device to launch and UK military rules demand it has a Master arming system the civvy systems do not have. I've seen many civvy BRS installations that once the safety pin has been removed would be easilly deployed accidentally.
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One thing that runs through my (admittedly limited) mind is the possibility of a switchpigs
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I have been told, and issue disclaimers as to veracity, that the pilot fell ill.
I know that I am too old to listen to rumour, but if it s the case then I reckon that pulling the bloody handle is a good choice.
I wish there had been a magic handle like this in my time - a few folk would be still with us.
I know that I am too old to listen to rumour, but if it s the case then I reckon that pulling the bloody handle is a good choice.
I wish there had been a magic handle like this in my time - a few folk would be still with us.
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So how many inadvertent firings has the BRS suffered? I guess as thing suggests: near impossible due to pressing the wrong tit or pulling the wrong leaver. I would suggest that the snap off guard serves as a MASS. Not sure if the Def Stan demands a MASS or two different types of electrical switch in series. So you have a pull and a twist. My extracts form the Def Stan are out of date. I think the DOSG (or what ever they call themselves today) sponsored rules are also being rewritten. I know they kept changing a few years back when I was working on a Pyro system that VX will be aware of. This was a safety system not unlike the BRS. It was probably made so safe that when you needed it to go bang it might not have done!! It really is a fine balance. My work brought me into contact with the BRS people. I also saw a concept for a non pyrotechnic launcher. What was wrong with a big bog off spring. that too is fraught with difficulty if the trigger is too hairy.
I share VX view that the BRS is more likely to save your life than a B Mk 71. just worry about it going off uncommanded.
I share VX view that the BRS is more likely to save your life than a B Mk 71. just worry about it going off uncommanded.
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The a/c was in auto flight carrying out an RNav approach when the runway was switched. The A/P was selected off at which point the a/c was manually flown through major height variations. The pilot became seriously disorientated and threw in the towel.
Allegedly.
Allegedly.
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On a wider front, regardless of the BRS issue does anyone else think that with glass and automation almost to Airbus levels available in SEP's these days that stick and rudder skills are deteriorating, just as they are in modern airliners apparently? I'm guessing here but I would think that there's a certain amount of brain switch off doing an automated approach rather than hand flying it.
I've only ever flown hand approaches so have nothing to compare it to really except I know that with the widespread use of portable GPS units in GA these days that a lot of pilots just follow the magenta and their SA goes out of the window. The argument is of course that using a GPS makes you more SA savvy... I'll put my hands up and say that I own a GPS myself but I use it as part of the nav solution, not as the nav solution.
I've only ever flown hand approaches so have nothing to compare it to really except I know that with the widespread use of portable GPS units in GA these days that a lot of pilots just follow the magenta and their SA goes out of the window. The argument is of course that using a GPS makes you more SA savvy... I'll put my hands up and say that I own a GPS myself but I use it as part of the nav solution, not as the nav solution.
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I'm confused. If you're flying for fun. Which I would imagine a 76 year old is. Why would you want an aircraft that does the job for you?
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Fascinating film about the development and how it works
Did I read somewhere that certain Russian fighters have a panic button that puts them back to straight and level if you lose it?
Did I read somewhere that certain Russian fighters have a panic button that puts them back to straight and level if you lose it?
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And this is a real life one, just misses a midair, but the glider line it's towing takes out his prop!!!!!
YouTube
YouTube
Met a chap once who was given a MIG 21 to play with in India. Pre-flight brief included the big red button which would return the aircraft to wings level if you wanted to eject from a UP.
He couldn't resist, climbed up to an unfeasible height, inverted, trimmed out and pressed.
He said he'd never forgotten the feeling as it pulled through to level flight somewhat nearer to the ground.
He couldn't resist, climbed up to an unfeasible height, inverted, trimmed out and pressed.
He said he'd never forgotten the feeling as it pulled through to level flight somewhat nearer to the ground.
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Thats not a knife!
Good post Nutty, Remember the Crocodile Dundee line "That's not a knife"
Check this out
X-38: Crew Return Vehicle
There is some video available somewhere if you search for it. Some of the early tests were done from a C17 using a ballast load of steel plates. Lots of us Brits went to Yuma to see it for real in 2009.
They were talking 30,000 lbs mass. not sure if that was suspended or extracted which may have included the weight of the chute itself, which was almost as big as a small car. I would suggest this becomes impractical for bringing a light commuter aircraft back to earth. You would need to be at a good height for this to work.
Check this out
X-38: Crew Return Vehicle
There is some video available somewhere if you search for it. Some of the early tests were done from a C17 using a ballast load of steel plates. Lots of us Brits went to Yuma to see it for real in 2009.
They were talking 30,000 lbs mass. not sure if that was suspended or extracted which may have included the weight of the chute itself, which was almost as big as a small car. I would suggest this becomes impractical for bringing a light commuter aircraft back to earth. You would need to be at a good height for this to work.
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I'm confused. If you're flying for fun. Which I would imagine a 76 year old is. Why would you want an aircraft that does the job for you?
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Originally Posted by smujsmith
One thing that runs through my (admittedly limited) mind is the possibility of a switchpigs. It seems to me that this, whole aircraft parachute, is fairly new, and I wonder how protected its deployment is ? Is it possible to accidentally deploy the chute and render the aircraft unflyable ? Lots of questions, someone must have a few answers.
As for accidental deployment of the Cirrus chute -- never happened.
The rocket is ignited by pulling a cable using a red handle above the pilot's right shoulder, reachable by any of the four occupants of the aircraft. A safety pin can be inserted into the holder to prevent extraction of the handle. And a placard cover is held on by velcro tabs.
The preflight, pretaxi and pretakeoff procedures all call for verification that the safety pin has been removed. Tragically, 5 fatal Cirrus accidents were found to have the safety pin in the holder.
So, no accidental deployments yet 5 fatal accidents killing 9 people with the safety pin still in.
Cheers
Rick
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Originally Posted by dragartist
So how many inadvertent firings has the BRS suffered? I guess as thing suggests: near impossible due to pressing the wrong tit or pulling the wrong leaver.
Originally Posted by dragartist
I would suggest that the snap off guard serves as a MASS. Not sure if the Def Stan demands a MASS or two different types of electrical switch in series.
With the introduction of the Cirrus G5 model, they switched from a mechanical igniter for the rocket to an electrical igniter. Lots of consternation among Cirrus pilots since the mechanical, spring-loaded, igniter has been so reliable, whereas electrical system failures have happened. However, engineers assure us that the igniter is wired to both BAT1 and BAT2 directly and require only a very small current to operate.
If the military requires a master electrical switch for the rocket igniter, then the wiring would seem easy to accomplish.
Cheers
Rick
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Sounds like the pin needs to be fitted into with possibly a micro switch at the bottom preventing power being applied with it still fitted in the handle..
Never a fan of electrical systems over mechanical, look what happened to the Diamond Twin Star and the battery problem on that no one envisaged.
In case you do not know, they had a flat battery so used an external power to start both engines instead of one as I believe the SOP's say, then the other on internal power thus ensuring its charged enough....
Anyway off he potters, shoots off down the runway, lifts off and selects gear up (electrical) and the poor battery suddenly lumped with raising the gear and no longer having enough oomph left in it to power both FADEC's as well, results in both engines shutting down and the aircraft returning from whence it came from. Resulting in an AD and an independant power source for the FADEC.
..
Never a fan of electrical systems over mechanical, look what happened to the Diamond Twin Star and the battery problem on that no one envisaged.
In case you do not know, they had a flat battery so used an external power to start both engines instead of one as I believe the SOP's say, then the other on internal power thus ensuring its charged enough....
Anyway off he potters, shoots off down the runway, lifts off and selects gear up (electrical) and the poor battery suddenly lumped with raising the gear and no longer having enough oomph left in it to power both FADEC's as well, results in both engines shutting down and the aircraft returning from whence it came from. Resulting in an AD and an independant power source for the FADEC.
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 8th Jun 2013 at 19:30.
As a Vigilant instructor I'd welcome such an installation.
CAPS is an excellent system, but it augments rather than replaces normal SEP Class Rating pilot skills.
A straight-in 300ft/nm approach on RW27 at Staverton in a single engined aeroplane makes compliance with the 'glide clear' rule somewhat problematic:
Some years ago, after being offered a straight-in approach, I was moaned at by the Flying Prevention Branch person in the tower for deliberately joining from the north-east of the RW centreline to short final in order to comply with the ANO 'glide clear' requirements......
Last edited by BEagle; 8th Jun 2013 at 19:27.
Avoid imitations
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If it had parachuted into the building just north of the centre line at about 1.5nm instead of a small garden, I wonder what would have been the outcome?
(In view of the present questions being asked in the house, it might have done us all a favour
).
(P.S. Do you think they are reading this?
)
(In view of the present questions being asked in the house, it might have done us all a favour
).(P.S. Do you think they are reading this?
)
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
As for the performance of the Ballistic Recovery System on the Cirrus, the website lists the following stats;
(First Cirrus event in October 2002)
So it's undoubtedly working for the GA pilots.
Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) Deployment History - Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association
There have been 44 known CAPS events as of 6 June, 2013.
Of those activations, 34 deployments are considered "saves" that involved 70 survivors with one fatality (figures do not include one unborn child who was also saved in CAPS event #13).
So it's undoubtedly working for the GA pilots.
Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) Deployment History - Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association
The Vigilant is a motor glider!! You should therefore be capable of flying it at any stage of flight without the engine running.