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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 14:25   #41 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
An interesting variation is why we have a general service medal. In the Army/RAF there was one before 1962 and one after 1962 with many different bars added to them. It would have been logical to continue with the GSM for Sierra Leone etc.

The Falklands would appear to be the first of the new medals, and well deserved at that, followed by the GW1 medal. From then we see a raft of NATO, UN, and then OSM issued which mark our change of military from largely stand-alone to a coalition partner.

Will the GSM series ever be resumed or will it eventually fade away?
The GSM was replaced by the OSM.

Instead of additional clasps added to a GSM for each campaign. A different ribboned OSM is awarded. OSMs have been awarded for non-coalition operations (ie Sierra Leone).
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 15:19   #42 (permalink)
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CB, thank you. The point is that the GSM and clasps has been replaced by the OSM with different ribbons and medals for each campaign. So, where with the GSM you could only read a serviceman's record when wearing the full medal now the there are different ribbons for each too.

Why did they decide to bring about this change? A change brought about during the previous Government.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 19:44   #43 (permalink)
 
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Interesting information. May I ask a couple of questions of this audience?

Why wasn't an OSM issued for TELIC; instead of what became the Iraq Medal? It was after Bliar's edict that the GSM be replaced by the OSM after all. Anyone know?

Again, genuine question - on medals, why isn't there a differentiation between those who serve in combat roles vs those in support roles? I'm thinking like the SAMA82 rosette when applied to troops in FOBs for 6 months vs blokes like me living in comfort in Bastion for 2 months on 1310 Flt?

Anyone know?
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 19:45   #44 (permalink)
 
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Interesting information. May I ask a couple of questions of this audience?

Why wasn't an OSM issued for TELIC; instead of what became the Iraq Medal? It was after Bliar's edict that the GSM be replaced by the OSM after all. Anyone know?

Again, genuine question - on medals, why isn't there a differentiation between those who serve in combat roles vs those in support roles? I'm thinking like the SAMA82 rosette, when applied now to troops in FOBs for 6 months vs blokes like me living in comfort in Bastion for 2-3 months on 1310 Flt?

Anyone know?
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 20:29   #45 (permalink)
 
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Roger,
Q1 is fairly straightforward, OSM is issued whilst the campaign is ongoing. Iraq, like SAM, like Granby were all medals issued after hostilities had ceased (the ongoing counter-insurgency in Iraq maintained that medal without clasp).

Q2 is already there, OSM for Afghanistan is quite complex, it is possible to receive the medal without the Afghanistan clasp and serving memory shows similar in the past, Granby could be issued without the clasp and as you say SAM without the rosette to indicate service outside of the combat zone. Your rationale creates more animosity than solves. Some can go to a FOB, never leave it and have fighting soldiers protecting them whilst those in Bastion can be protecting its occupants and possibly be in greater danger than the individual in the FOB, this is why the boundaries set are quite broad.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 21:40   #46 (permalink)
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Or Ascension, or Cyprus, or Northwood?

Where do you draw the line?

I was about 300 miles away from an enemy parachute landing and 150 miles from a potentially hostile air base, we were ate readiness to launch on several occasions. It was suggested we should not get the GSM. Naturally groundcrews at our base were not similarly advised.

Or my daughter, having done 4 years in the reserves thought she should not apply for a veteran's badge.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 23:47   #47 (permalink)
 
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Armstrong, Miller, Mitchell and Webb - WW2 Pilots - Red Nose Day 2009 - YouTube
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 09:02   #48 (permalink)
 
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Quote: Turning to campaign medals, there were just the 3 in WW1.

I beg to differ, if Campaign is taken as a subset of War, as in "Burma", Africa" etc.

The 1914 star was, and the 1914-15 star was at a pinch, a campaign medal, although the latter was awarded to RN [for example] out of the F&F area.

The British War Medal was just that: not a campaign in any sense that I infer above ........... all theatres, all periods.

The Victory medal was specifically to commemorate the Victory, a victory in war, not a campaign.

And the Mercantile Marine medal could be earned any time, anywhere, for a single voyage in a danger zone.

So I make that one, or just possibly two Campaign medals.

The maximum wearable was four, if [unlikely but not impossible ...... I know of no cases but you can bet they existed!] a 1914 or 1915 soldier or RM was discharged and then went to sea.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 09:12   #49 (permalink)
 
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 09:47   #50 (permalink)
 
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The maximum wearable was four, if [unlikely but not impossible ...... I know of no cases but you can bet they existed!] a 1914 or 1915 soldier or RM was discharged and then went to sea.
I have certainly seen WW1 groups of four, but these were awarded to members of the RNR, some of whom qualified for the 1914-15 Star and Victory Medal in addition to the usual Merchant Navy entitlement of the Mercantile Marine medal and the British War Medal.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 10:10   #51 (permalink)
 
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Thank you: there you go then!

Those groups of four would, I suggest, include NO campaign medal as such.

[Indeed, the much discussed, never issued, Dardanelles Medal would have been such a campaign medal]
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 12:27   #52 (permalink)
 
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Further to my last, I have just heard from my collector friend (the one who does medal mounting, whom some of you will already know) and he tells me he has a group of four with the 1914 Star and bar to a chap who had served in the Army Service Corps, been discharged and then joined the Merchant Navy. Definitely a scarce combination.

As you say, L-B - not campaign medals in the strict sense of the word, but generally described as such.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 09:05   #53 (permalink)
 
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Further to my earlier postings, I received the Spink Manual for the Wearing of Orders, decorations and Medals as a Chrimbo Pressie. I wish I had it to hand when this visiting Wg Cdr had got a bit uppity!
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 09:46   #54 (permalink)

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Quote:
I wish I had it to hand when this visiting Wg Cdr had got a bit uppity!
... all you really needed was Chapter 8 to AP 1358. What a plonker said Wing Co must have been - bad enough getting "uppity" when you're right!

One recalls an aged rockape officer at Hampshire's Secret Helicopter base in the early '70s, who was frequently "advised" that his pre-'62 GSM ribbon should come after his WW2 ribbons - until he pointed out it was for Palestine in 1936!

But one has recently seen an MoD Staff Officer, with all of 2 Jubilee Medals, who managed to get them the wrong way round!
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 12:37   #55 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
CB, thank you. The point is that the GSM and clasps has been replaced by the OSM with different ribbons and medals for each campaign. So, where with the GSM you could only read a serviceman's record when wearing the full medal now the there are different ribbons for each too.

Why did they decide to bring about this change? A change brought about during the previous Government.
I've been trying to find out the 'why' for you. Although my ability research is limited as I'm currently in a desert, I can't find the 'why' in the relevant JSP or DINs: only the when - 1 Jan 00. Sorry.

I suppose that you can now tell a serviceman's record just from the ribbons rather than the particular medal.

Back to the rows bit. I do recall an air officer who managed to wear his 3 ribbons on 2 rows.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 12:43   #56 (permalink)
 
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you could make a good case for finding out who spent half his life writing that Chapter 8 document and forcing him/her to spend the rest of their life doing something useful
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 06:23   #57 (permalink)
 
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Going back to WWI medals, was there not something called the Territorial Force Medal? The ribbon looked a bit like the 'Kenya GSM' with black and gold in it.

As to comments about 'pre-war GSM'. I seem to recall that that the 'GSM 1919' came as 'first' or 'second' issue and the same ribbon was used in each case. As we know the 'Campaign Service Medal' simply reversed the colours and changed their width a bit. Incidentally, the last clasp for the old GSM was Brunei. It was only in issue for something like a month (Dec 62) and it required just one day in theatre - rather the usual 30. Up to that point the RN/RM had their own GSM but this medal and the Army/Air Force version were then combined.

As to medals being worn the wrong way round, in 1975 I stood at the Cenotaph next to an old soldier wearing the DCM and MM, along with a shed load of others. When I asked why his MM was in front of the DCM he told me it was because of the date they had been awarded! I checked up on him later and he was genuine, just a bit confused.

Drifting the Thread slightly, I attended a BofB ceremony in a church near where I was based and the serving officers were in the front pews with the veterans behind. As I entered my allotted pew, I glanced towards the veterans and there staring back at me was an impressive array: DSO, DFC, AFC and bar - most humbling - only beaten by the bit afterwards when the stash was given his wreath, in the shape of the pilots' flying badge'; which he then turned upside down before laying it on the war memorial - talk about Edna Everidge's spectacles!!!!

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Old 28th Dec 2012, 07:17   #58 (permalink)
 
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TTN - this same Wg Cdr had his 2 Balkans Medals (Kosovo and FRY) plated to look shiny ...

My office has bookshelves creaking with all manner of interesting books and publications (and those who knew me in MB also knew I extended beyond my allocated 1.6 m 'linear storage'). A copy of the Spinks manual, lying on my crowded desk-top, will now send a suitable warning to those who think they are right...unfortunately a hyperlink to an AP doesn't have the same Gravitas!
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 09:37   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-Duffer View Post
Going back to WWI medals,

. . . As to comments about 'pre-war GSM'. . . .


As to medals being worn the wrong way round, in 1975 I stood at the Cenotaph next to an old soldier wearing the DCM and MM, along with a shed load of others. When I asked why his MM was in front of the DCM he told me it was because of the date they had been awarded!
My grandfather was very specific on the order of his medals and as well as the two bars of 5 he wrote out the list too. He had his GSM after his MSM and before his Croix de Guerre.

Worcestershire medals were adamant that the GSM should follow the 1914-1919 Great War medal and before the Delhi Durbar. With the exception of the CdeG the medals were originally in date order with only the MC put at the front. Maybe this 'incorrect' order reflected a shortage of toilet paper.

Now one may have been historically correct whereas the other was correct for the time. To posthumously alter the order to the proper sequence is, I believe, wrong.

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 28th Dec 2012 at 09:38.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 10:23   #60 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Going back to WWI medals, was there not something called the Territorial Force Medal? The ribbon looked a bit like the 'Kenya GSM' with black and gold in it.
The Territorial Force War Medal is the scarcest of the WW1 campaign medals (pace langleybaston ), only c 34,000 were awarded. It was only awarded to those members of the Territorial Force who served on active service up to 30 September 1914. It is not possible to have this medal and the 1914 Star, the two are mutually exclusive.

Incidentally the 'Kenya GSM' you refer to was the Africa General Service Medal, which, prior to Kenya had last been awarded for the Nyasaland campaign of 1915, a record gap between clasps on a British campaign medal.
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