Did any RAF or RN aircrew on exchange with USAF, USN fly over Vietnam?

[jsbmail2650]

Major Johnnie L Sullivan

This is for anyone who would have an inerest in my following statement:

On January 18, 1964 I was assigned as the door gunner on an armed Huey gunship (UH-1B 62-01880) (escorting numerous "slick" aircraft in an operation south of Saigon near the mouth of the Mekong River. We had a crew of the Pilot, Co Pilot, Crew Chief, and Door gunner. We also had on board an ARVN (Vietnamese Army) observer and BRITISH WING COMMANDER ALLAN H. LEE. He had never flown with us before and I had never observed military personnel from other countries with us on operations before. To my knowledge he was an observer who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The ground fire was intense and our tail rotor was definitely damaged by the enemy fire and we lost it. We crashed into the South China Sea. The Co Pilot and I were rescued. Commander Lee washed onto the shore a while later and was recovered. The pilot, crew chief and the Vietnamese observer were never recovered. Years later a US remains recovery team went to the area and villagers who lived in a village near there said the remains of an American had washed onto the shore and they had in their possession the crew chief's Army ID card. Johnnie L. Sullivan, Ennis, TX

[Lonewolf_50]

js, thanks for your recollection. It's truly a strange world we live in.

hval:
That bottom photo looks like a T-28, and I am guessing it is a T-28D Trojan of USAF vintage. My uncle flew in those in Southeast Asia, IIRC from a base in Thailand.

[ICM]

Wg Cdr Lee

jsbmail2650: If you check back, post #36 appears to explain what Wg Cdr Lee was doing with you that day.

[Knucklehead]

C141 Pilot

I cannot confirm this first account but I can the second. In Singapore while on loan service an RAF Wg Cdr told me the tale of a an RAF pilot on loan to the USAF MATS Starlifter force. He was asked to take cargo into Saigon and said that he was not allowed to fly over, let alone land in Vietnam. His boss told him that they were short of crews and assured him that he would land, turn round and leave immediately. After landing at Saigon all hell broke loose. His cargo was unloaded, replaced with a new load and he was told to head for Da Nang as the Tet offensive was causing severe problems. His protests fell on deaf ears so away he went. He flew quite a few transport support sorties before returning safely to the States. He did not talk about his experiences. Some time later the British Embassy in Washington sent him a polite letter asking him to explain the US campaign ribbons including an Air Medal which they had received on his behalf. Evidently he was allowed to keep but not wear them. Can't write a new paragraph but here is the second account. In the ANZUK mess at Changi in 1973, I met two British army officers from I believe the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Both were wearing Vietnam campaign ribbons awarded to Australian forces. They had been asked to resign from the British army and get experience by joining the Australian army with the assurance that there commissions and posts in the regiment. were secure.

[Davef68]

Knucklehead - see post 22 for more along the C141 line.

[zetec2]

overflying Vietnam

Mid 70's on the Gurkha BritDet we used to overfly Vietnam on our way Hong Kong (Kai Tak) to Bangkok (then Calcutta - Kathmandu) and return, seem to remember transit across started over Da Nang often being picked up by US fighters who came up for a look see.

[Nugget90]

RAF Exchange Tour with the RAAF

In the mid/late 60s two RAF pilots and an RAF navigator who were serving on an exchange tour with an RAAF transport squadron were asked, after they had completed their first 6 months flying within Australia and could now be cleared to operate beyond its shores, if they wished to take part in the schedules that supported the RAR detachments in South Vietnam - as were their Australian colleagues. Of course the answer was 'Yes'.

All sorties leaving their Australian Base had to be authorised, but the RAF aircrew's names were entered in pencil* and they were accompanied by a lesser qualified Australian pilot/navigator who was the 'official' crew member. Initially, the aircraft routed to/from Butterworth via Pearce and the Cocos Islands (due to Confrontation with Indonesia) and later via Darwin and Singapore.

Sorties were flown from Butterworth principally to and between Vung Tau and the Saigon airfields in '66 and '67, bringing in personnel and stores (especially fresh Australian milk), and collecting those who were going home. The aircraft didn't remain in Vietnam overnight but flew up to Ubon as this was a safe haven.

Of course, the RAF Support Unit at Edinburgh had to be informed that these sorties were being flown, and they in time reported this back to the UK. This resulted in the RAF aircrew being told not to continue to join their RAAF colleagues in supporting the nation's participation in the ANZUS expedition. This was followed by Canberra demanding an early end to the RAF exchange with this squadron.

However, ties forged with the Aussies 50 years ago were strong enough to endure, and I know of one who will be marching in Sydney this year on ANZAC Day, proud to be amongst his former colleagues once again.

* 'In pencil' so that if the worst happened the squadron could erase the entry and deny that participation had been authorised!! However, as one RAAF pilot put it, "If do we have to force land in South Vietnam, the first thing we do is shoot the Poms!"

[ancientaviator62]

When I was stationed at RAF Changi we had a regular schedule into Saigon taking in Embassy supplies and sometimes a passenger or two. Always very busy there and the radios were awash with calls. Pic taken from our Hercules following the 'follow me' which is following a USAF Hercules. Without a 'follow me' we would be lost !

[BBadanov]

...and you think on the ground was busy?


The circuits in these places - Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut - were really crazy if you ever had to go in there.
I heard once: "10th aircraft downwind, say callsign!".

[ancientaviator62]

BBadanov,
yes I do recall that the circuits were very busy. Always a problem for us Brits to copy the the clearances passed in less than familiar accents at Gatling gun speeds.

[Dan Winterland]

An ex colleague of mine recalls, while flying the Andover, to break off the approach at Than Son Nhat so that an airstrike could be carried out at about ten miles finals. The Andover not being very fast, he got a grandstand view.

Cathay Pacific had a daily HKG-SGN-HKG schedule right up to the day before the fall of Saigon.

[chopper2004]

Happy Easter all,

We're the Andovers in the then RAF camouflage of green and brown as they wre doe orated in FEAF or VIP colors ?

Has Anyone got photos of Andovers at Than Son Nhut or other places in country ?

isnt there a photo of 203 Shackleton on the ramp at Cam Rahn Bay kicking around here?

Laughingly the only RAF Andover I have ever seen and spoke to the crew was from RAFG - form Gatow . They flew into RAF Churc Fenton 24 years ago to this day when I was on CCF camp working at the Met Office on work experience. True gents, think one of them was a Squadron Leader and his co-pilot was a Flt Lt. The older one had a pipe with him,

Cheers

[Onceacaptain]

The Exchange Program

The last RAF exchange crew of that era finished with the RAAF in 1968. This exchange had been operating since the end of WW11. The RAF crews were operating with 36Sqn, RAAF flying the C 130As and while they were probably not tasked directly into Vietnam some may have "passed by" after completing a mission from Butterworth to Ubon and returning to Butterworth via Vung Tau where the RAAF Caribous were based. Ubon in those days was part of the SEATO arrangement.

I was in the last exchange group of 2 pilots and 1 navigator serving with 267 Sqn flying the Argosy. We returned to Australia in July 1968. While there may have been restrictions on where RAF crews could fly with the RAAF there were also restrictions on where we could fly with the RAF.

The RAAF transport exchange after this period was with the USAF until both the RAF and the RAAF acquired the C 130J.

Many ex RAF pilots flew with the RAAF during the Vietnam conflict on both the Caribou and the Canberra

[Onceacaptain]

Further to my previous, I recall Argosy aircraft from 215Sqn operating though Tan Son Nhut during my period in Vietnam 1964/65

[BBadanov]

Many ex RAF pilots flew with the RAAF during the Vietnam conflict on both the Caribou and the Canberra


OAC,
2 SQN Canberras - no ex RAF pilots or navs. There was one ex RAF Regt chap as OiC airfield defence guards.
Of interest, one CO 2 SQN had served an exchange with the RAF on 74 and 92 SQNS (Hunters, I guess).


35 SQN Caribou - unsure, possible but none spring to mind.


9 SQN Iroquois - yes, "Lofty" Lance (#18, #37) was killed in action; there may have been other ex-RAF pilots on choppers.

[Onceacaptain]

35 Sqn - Jock Cassels to name but one for the moment

[John Eacott]

During Eagle's last commission (the Grey Funnel Line Far East tour de force) a compassionate flight in an 899NAS Sea Vixen departed somewhere between HK and Singers late in 1971. I can only recall hazy details but I do recall a slight delay to arrange diplomatic clearance for the flight to pass through South Vietnamese airspace.

No doubt there would be an aluminium death tube driver out there who would have more accurate details?

[BBadanov]

Ok thanks OAC.

Now for some slight thread drift.

The CO 2 SQN in Vietnam (1968-69) I quoted had done an RAF fighter exchange.
The CO after him (1969-70) did an RAF QFI exchange at CFS.
And the CO (1967-68), who later became CAS, had done a transport secondment with the RAF on Dakotas as part of the RAAF contingent during the Berlin Airlift.

When CAS, in 1980 he flew RAAF Dakota A65-69 into Berlin. This Dak was based at Butterworth, Malaysia, and during June 1980 was ferried to Europe to be gifted to the Berlin Airlift Museum at Gatow. Appropriate to have a Berlin Airlift veteran flying it!
As only Brit, US or French aircraft were allowed safe passage through the Berlin air corridors (up to 1989), A65-69 was re-serialled as RAF ZD215 for the corridor ferry. Currently on display at Gatow.

[Old-Duffer]

Throughout the Vietnam war, the Brits frequently staged through Saigon TSN. The Argosy did not really have the legs to fly Changi-Kai Tak non stop with sufficient to make the diversion to Manila, if the need arose.

When posted to HK from Borneo in Mar 67, I first went to Changi and thence by Argosy to HK via Saigon.

In a very childish gesture (it now seems) I sent picture postcards to a couple of girlfriends in UK to say I was in Vietnam!!!

O-D

[wessex19]

Regarding Wing Commander Allan H Lee

This was posted on a Vietnam wall of remembrance site;
On 18 January 1964, a UH-1B helicopter with call sign Dragon Three Three departed An Hiep airfield on an escort mission for troop deployment onto LZ Aloha near the southernmost tip of Thanh Phu Island, approximately 65 miles southwest of Saigon. At the controls was a Creole from Oakdale, Louisiana, 1LT Bryford Glenn Metoyer, a pilot with the UTT Helo Co, 145th AVN Bn, US ARMY Spt Grp, MACV. The 26 year-old Metoyer had become a father for the second time, a little girl named Elisha. He longed to see the newborn, hold his wife, Evelyn, and play with his son, Bryford, Jr. Metoyer’s motto was, "Nothing is impossible." He managed to fly back from Vietnam and hitchhiked home to see his family. He and his older brother, Major Herbert R. Metoyer, were among the first U.S Army helicopter pilots. Three weeks earlier, they had crossed paths in an international airport as Bryford returned to Vietnam and Herbert completed his tour, missing each other by only a few hours. After 300 missions, Metoyer was no stranger to danger. He made a strafing run into Viet Cong positions when suddenly his chopper experienced tail rotor failure, hit the water on the left side, rolled over, and crashed into the South China Sea. Within minutes two nearby rescue helicopters hovered over the crash site. The crews dropped several life vests into the rough water and pulled WO Patrick E. Gray and PFC Johnnie L. Sullivan to safety, but too weak to hold onto a vest, Metoyer was observed to go under three or four times before disappearing completely beneath the three foot waves. Searchers subsequently recovered the body of Wing Commander Allan H. Lee, a British Royal Air Force passenger on board the aircraft, but Metoyer and the crew chief, PFC John L. Straley, were still missing. Straley could not swim and strapped in his seat, he had made no attempt to release his seat belt before the crash. On January 23rd the North Vietnamese newspaper, "People’s Army," published a page one feature on the Battle for Tranh Phu. The article stated the U.S. had deployed a large force to begin the "Phoenix Campaign 1" in the small area of Thanh Phong and Gia Thanh villages and during this battle guerrilla forces shot down one helicopter, killing a British Colonel Air Force Commander of the Far East and two American’s. Twenty-years later, Bryford, Jr. graduated from West Point, but there was no further information on Case 0028 until October 1992, when the Vietnamese provided the U. S. Defense Intelligence Agency with over 4000 photographs and four original identification cards belonging to missing American servicemen. One of the ID cards was that of PFC John Straley. No further details were provided regarding how the ID card came to be in the possession of the Vietnamese, however, it was turned over to the family. In March 1993, A joint U.S./VN team interviewed Nguyen Van Phuong, assistant platoon leader of the 10th Plt, 2nd Co, 516th Bn, Ben Tre Province Forces, who claimed to have shot down an American aircraft during the "20-Day Battle" in January 1964 with a submachine gun when it flew over Thanh Phong Village. Phuong said the aircraft burned and crashed in the 5 ½ mile wide mouth of the river towards Tra Vinh Province. Several months later, a villager complained to Phuong that he was upset because the wreckage of the aircraft Phung had shot down had snagged his fishing net. In 1969 or 1970, the same villager and two of his sons were bottom-fishing on a raft at the depth of 16 feet in the fast-moving river when their net snagged the tail of a helicopter at Bung Dune, My Long Village, Cau Ngang District, Tra Vinh Province. They tried to recover the tail, but it was too heavy. The Thanh Phu Peninsula borders the ocean to the east, the Ham Luong River to the north, and the Co Chien River to the south. On 22 September 2010, JPAC visited the alleged underwater crash location between My Long Nam and Hiep Thanh villages with the two sons of the fisherman as guides. After a 30-minute boat ride three miles from shore, the team determined the depth of the water at the alleged crash site was approximately 23 feet. The team leader estimated an undercover operation would require a hundred plus laborers. Metoyer and Straley continue to be listed among the missing. - See more at: Virtual Vietnam Veterans Wall of Faces | JOHN L STRALEY | ARMY