PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Forgotten your Username/Password?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 6th Aug 2012, 19:46   #41 (permalink)

Flashes from the Archives of Oblivion
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: 03 ACE
Age: 63
Posts: 949
They can always chuck it into the washing machine !

After all "These colours don't run"
El Grifo is online now   Reply
Old 6th Aug 2012, 21:30   #42 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The real world
Posts: 325
It's a piece of cloth whatever you say and it was an accident. You should pay more attention to the customs and beliefs of other countries and then perhaps fewer Countries in the world would despise you and by association us.
Jayand is offline   Reply
Old 6th Aug 2012, 22:45   #43 (permalink)
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 1,348
For the terminally bored, it's all in a riveting publication called the United States Code (USC) , Title 4, Chapter 1. Sub para f is obviously a building tip, and sub para i has never been read by any business owners in the US. As for all the smart aleck remarks about needing a Government Code regarding handling of the flag, at least it removes all doubt on the correct way to treat it. Interesting that sub para k endorses flag burning - kind of!



Quote:
USC
EXPCITE-
TITLE 4 - FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES
CHAPTER 1 - THE FLAG

-HEAD-
Sec. 8. Respect for flag

-STATUTE-
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of
America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing.
Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional
flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down,
except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger
to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the
ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but
always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or
drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in
folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and
red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle,
and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk,
draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored
in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or
damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of
it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure,
design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving,
holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any
manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as
cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise
impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed
for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be
fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or
athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the
uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of
patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and
is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin
being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a
fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way,
preferably by burning.

Last edited by Two's in; 6th Aug 2012 at 22:46.
Two's in is offline   Reply
Old 6th Aug 2012, 23:14   #44 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 210
Considering how Phelps didn't have the decency to stop talking to his mate, or to take his foot off the dais, while the bronze medal was given out in one of his medal ceremonies I don't think the yanks can claim the moral high ground. They are very respectful of their own, not really of others.
juliet is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 13:28   #45 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 2,460
"The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any
manner whatsoever"

half of America will be in the slammer...................
Heathrow Harry is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 14:38   #46 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 21,910
Quote:
The flag should never
In modern English, 'should' is used to indicate a strong, yet non-mandatory recommendation........

However, I hope whoever it was who was responsible for the sports day flag cock-up will at least have apologised with all sincerity.

Last edited by BEagle; 7th Aug 2012 at 14:41.
BEagle is online now   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 15:04   #47 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: N. Spain
Age: 70
Posts: 1,083
Quote:
We agreed with a B-52 captain and his BN that UK hono(u)r would only be satisfied by the 'donation' of a suitable 'gizzit' - so one of those very posh Stars and Stripes jobs, complete with gold tassels and cords, mounted on a pole stuck up a golden duck's arse, found its way into the unsuspecting DetCo's golf bag, which we were taking back to the UK in our mighty Tin Triangle. But we had to assure the Buff chums that Old Glory would be treated respectfully.

And so it was.....until it was auctioned off at the 35 Sqn disbandment dinner at RAF Scampton some years late and 25 went into the bar kitty
Quote:
However, I hope whoever it was who was responsible for the sports day flag cock-up will at least have apologised with all sincerity.
Pot, kettle, black or what? Hypocrisy on a grand scale!
Shack37 is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 15:26   #48 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 21,910
You do spout bolleaux! We treated the US flag with every respect whilst it was in our custody en-route to the UK, keeping the promise we'd made to the B-52 folk.

Whereas this was an avoidable cock-up.
BEagle is online now   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 16:24   #49 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The real world
Posts: 325
"avoidable" as was the shooting down of a IX Sqn tornado by a Patriot crew! It's a piece of cloth put it into perspective!
Jayand is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 16:40   #50 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: N. Spain
Age: 70
Posts: 1,083
Quote:
You do spout bolleaux! We treated the US flag with every respect whilst it was in our custody en-route to the UK, keeping the promise we'd made to the B-52 folk.

Whereas this was an avoidable cock-up.
And auctioning this flag to gain 25 for the "bar kitty" was a calculated and deliberate insult. You can't even claim it was a "cock-up".

Last edited by Shack37; 7th Aug 2012 at 16:42.
Shack37 is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 16:52   #51 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 1,891
As an Anglo-American can I just say I don't really give a hoot.

It isn't as if the RAF personnel set fire to the flag and ran about screaming "down with the Great Satan" but even if they did, it is a piece of cloth.

Perspective is required, as 'Jayand' touched upon.
The Helpful Stacker is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 16:55   #52 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 21,910
The flag in question was auctioned by the Sqn Cdr for the benefit of the disbanding squadron members present some 30 years ago. What the winner later did with the flag was something for his own conscience, I guess.....

Failing to secure a nation's flag at such a high profile event as the award of Olympic medals was a significant cock-up. The two events are not comparable.

The engagement of the IX Sqn Tornado was avoidable - as was the netting of a Tornado in Gulf War 1 by a Saudi ATC controller, who raised the wrong barrier at night - and political sensitivities meant that this wasn't actually mentioned in the Accident Report....

Last edited by BEagle; 7th Aug 2012 at 17:24.
BEagle is online now   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 17:16   #53 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: N. Spain
Age: 70
Posts: 1,083
[QUOTE]
Failing to secure a nation's flag at such a high profile event as the award of Olympic medals was a significant cock-up. The two events are not comparable.
[QUOTE]

To use you're own brand of adjectives, bolleaux, cobblers and sh1te.
One was an accidental "cock-up", the other was a deliberate act of disrespect, however long ago, by a Sqn Cdr who should have known better. In that respect you are correct in saying "The two events are not comparable"
Shack37 is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 17:34   #54 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Destin
Age: 66
Posts: 12,979
It is fair to say to the Brits the American Flag is just a piece of cloth. It is also fair to say that to an American it is far more than a piece of cloth.

In Nigeria, a British couple had a US Flag they were using as a table cloth. At a party I noticed that and offered to buy the flag from them for a very fair sum. They snottily rejected both my offer and then my concern about the message they were giving their American guests and neighbors.

In the end I got the Flag....and the fellow did not get his Ass kicked.

It took the insistence of a fellow Brit to get that accomplished as he saw some serious debate should the sale or change of manner of display not be made.

I would not begin to insult others in such a manner and do not wish to be insulted either. We should all respect one another just as a matter of good manners.
SASless is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 18:42   #55 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
Posts: 1,175
Quote:
It is fair to say to the Brits the American Flag is just a piece of cloth. It is also fair to say that to an American it is far more than a piece of cloth.
Not to me Sas, and neither is my own. But: you can buy stars and stripes underpants in America; and the '72 Olympic swimmers wore s&s Speedos. I was at the ladies' footie semi at Old Trafford last night: every kind of yank wore every kind of Old Glory in every style you can imagine, and some sat on them. The flag of each nation WAS grounded for the anthems, which were sung or respected depending on your support. I detected no offence except for the referee (she was crap).

I read your posts with interest, usually agree. Think you are wrong here.

Regards,

CG
charliegolf is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 18:54   #56 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 1,891

Classy and respectful.

Makes me proud to be American.
The Helpful Stacker is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 19:19   #57 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Shelton WA.
Posts: 302
It was an accident, get off your high horse. The flag is absused every day in the land of the free, mostly by red neck hypocritical southern repulicans. Sample :


American Flag Wall of Shame


Click for enlargement.
These flags are flying at half staff and have been for over a week when the US flag and State of CT flag should be flying at full staff. The US flag is ripped and tattered. The flag of Japan flies from the same halyard below the US Flag. These flags and three more on the premises are all flying at half staff. They are flying on the grounds of the Granby Middle and High School complex, Granby, Connecticut. Picture credit: WeThePeopleGranby.com
Submitted by Terry White
"When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace." (Flag Code, Section 7g)
"The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning." (Flag Code, Section 8k)
Section 7m. specifies the occasions upon which the flag may be flown at half-staff.
When the US flag is at half-staff, other foreign national flags are flown at full staff alongside the US flag flag. (Reference: Department of the Army Pamphlet 60060)



Flag hangs in the bushes at a business in Smyrna, Delaware
Submitted by Pam
"No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America." (Flag Code, Section 8)
"The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise." (Flag Code, Section 8b)


Click pictures to see enlargements
In an article meant to celebrate our independence, Apartment Therapy (a home decor website) posted a picture of a couch draped with a flag, as if it's a slipcover. The flag is touching the floor and certainly shown disrespect if someone actually sits on it. In the same article they also chose to use a picture of a flag hung vertically in the wrong orientation.
Submitted by Caitlin Weather
"When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and ... to the observer's left." (Flag Code, Section 7i)
"The flag should not be ... allowed to touch the ground." (Flag Code, Section 7n)
"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery." (Flag Code, Section 8d)


New swimsuits for the 2011 summer season spotted at my local Walmart.
Submitted by Walmart Shopper, Weatherford, Tx
"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery." (Flag Code, Section 8d)


Living on the Oregon Coast doesn't expose me to much in the way of franchise operations . . . so, when a friend and I were visiting in Tucson, a military city, we were shocked and insulted to see this McDonald's, near Craycroft Road, displaying the American flag, with their logo flag underneath, on the same pole ... clearly a violation of the Flag Code. Then, upon our return through Portland, Oregon, we stopped at the Tanasbourne Shopping Center on 185th Street, and discovered the same violation at their McDonald's, an American flag, with the McDonald's logo flag underneath, on the same pole. Perhaps this is a corporate policy, and one which needs to be halted. Please help spread the word.
Submitted by Sherry L. Vachio
"Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown." (Flag Code, Section 8i)


This just isn't right!
Submitted by C.J.
"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery." (Flag Code, Section 8d)

Hillsboro installs flag-painted fake fire hydrant as "tribute" to deceased K-9. No disrespect intended...they say.
Submitted by Carl Collins
"The flag of the United States is any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, of any size, accurate or not, that is recognized as a flag by the reasonable observer." (Flag Code, Section 3)
"No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America." (Flag Code, Section 8)
"The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything." (Flag Code, Section 8h)


How much more disrespectful can FOX News get...???
Submitted by R.L., Pagosa Springs, CO
See the complete FOX News slide show of American Flag bathing suits: American Flag Bikini Fashion
"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery." (Flag Code, Section 8d)



Attached is a copy of U.S. Flag paper tissues.
Submitted by Tim, Alpharetta, GA
"It should not ... printed or otherwise impressed on ... anything that is designed for temporary use and discard." (Flag Code, Section 8i)
"No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America." (Flag Code, Section 8)
"The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything." (Flag Code, Section 8h)


I just saw this. It is called the "Flag of Honor and Heroes" and contains in small type, the names of the victims of September 11. It seems patriotic, but you shouldn't write on the flag, I was taught.
JS, Kansas
"The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature." (Flag Code, Section 8g)


The flag should not to be used as a "skin" on a disposable camera. This was found on sale at Sam's Club.
Submitted by W.C., Vermont
"The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature." (Flag Code, Section 8g)
"The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything." (Flag Code, Section 8h)


This is on a business in Dallas TX, where the owner claims to be a former Marine. I have asked him on several occasions to change it.
Paul Hakes
"The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning." (Flag Code, Section 8k)
Update: The flag was removed shortly after the posting of this picture here.


A golf club!? "When on the course of human events..."
Submitted by Arlen, Long Island City, New York

"The flag should not be ... allowed to touch the ground." (Flag Code, Section 7n) "No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America." (Flag Code, Section 8)



What's good for business is good for America! Well, the flag should not be used as decoration on a credit card, no matter how American that seems!
A. Clinton, Provo, Utah
"The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever." (Flag Code, Section 8i)
"The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature." (Flag Code, Section 8g)
Gemini Twin is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 19:54   #58 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Destin
Age: 66
Posts: 12,979
Get off my High Horse....sure...be glad to do so!










So we have Morons in my country....I guess you folks are immune from such people GT?

Last edited by SASless; 7th Aug 2012 at 19:58.
SASless is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 20:38   #59 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 76
Quote:
So we have Morons in my country....I guess you folks are immune from such people GT?
We don't have a flag code, you can pretty much do what you want with the Union Flag.
Bing is offline   Reply
Old 7th Aug 2012, 20:44   #60 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 1,891
SASless - The difference is that in the UK there is no equivalent of the US 'Flag Code', so the incorporation of the union flag into items of clothing etc, whilst often tacky, isn't officially a criminal offence.

Ultimately the point is that you are crying foul with regards the 'insult' that was bestowed upon the flag on the United States of America and seemingly insisting that,

Quote:
.....It is fair to say to the Brits the American Flag is just a piece of cloth. It is also fair to say that to an American it is far more than a piece of cloth....
....when it is quite obvious to the examples that 'Gemini Twin' provided that to many of our compatriots it is just a piece of cloth/adornment for a couch/advertising tool/credit card decoration/etc. The fact you point out tacky uses of the union flag doesn't strengthen your case, it just amplifies the absurdity that is you trying to insist that US citizens show more respect for their flag, when the truth is that many will break a law that the UK doesn't have in order to abuse it.
The Helpful Stacker is offline   Reply
Reply
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:26.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network