RAF funeral question
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RAF funeral question
Hi, I'm not military but have an enquiring mind and have enjoyed lurking here for a while. My brother was in the RAF and he was killed in the early 80's, when off duty; He is written in the book at St Clement Danes but not on the new national memorial wall as he was off duty. I was recently talking to someone about him and about the funeral and in hindsight the RAF seemed to go to quite a big effort. We had the 'knock on the door' with an officer from the local RAF station and for his funeral the following week a high ranking Chaplin flew in to take the service, his uniformed colleagues were also there and served as pall bearers. We had a union flag on the coffin, there was a bugler and they arranged a flypast from the local UAS, I believe it was. I was very proud of him and the RAF involvement in his funeral really cemented that and his memories. He was 'just' an SAC with about seven years service. I was just wondering if this was the normal level of support they gave to the families, I hadn't really thought about it that way before.
Queens Regulations used to have a table of what you were entitled to at your funeral and depending on your rank. Nowadays, it's more of an arrangement made with the deceased's family as to what they would like and what can be provided and within the bounds of good taste and possibility.
We have all seen the way in which service personnel are repatriated from overseas but in a sense, that's the tip of the iceberg.
Every deceased person's family is assigned a 'Visiting Officer' - it used to be called the 'Effects Officer'. This person provides the liaison between the service and the family and is there to help with all the many issues which arise.
In June I attended the memorial service for a retired officer, who was then an RAF Reserve officer. He had been cremated earlier that day and at the end of the service, the air experience flight/UAS did a flypast over the church. As it was a beautiful early summer day, it was a fitting end to a wonderful service, which had been arranged by the family and the officer's work colleagues. I hope they pack the church out when it's my turn: but I doubt it, as this guy was a character who lived live to the full.
Old Duffer
We have all seen the way in which service personnel are repatriated from overseas but in a sense, that's the tip of the iceberg.
Every deceased person's family is assigned a 'Visiting Officer' - it used to be called the 'Effects Officer'. This person provides the liaison between the service and the family and is there to help with all the many issues which arise.
In June I attended the memorial service for a retired officer, who was then an RAF Reserve officer. He had been cremated earlier that day and at the end of the service, the air experience flight/UAS did a flypast over the church. As it was a beautiful early summer day, it was a fitting end to a wonderful service, which had been arranged by the family and the officer's work colleagues. I hope they pack the church out when it's my turn: but I doubt it, as this guy was a character who lived live to the full.
Old Duffer
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
OD, similarly I attended such a ceremony at Bury St Edmunds. While the immediate commander was army the RAF managed the ceremony. The firing party was absolutely perfect with 3 volleys with a single bang each time. There was a flypast by Tornadoes from Marham. I don't know how many as they were above cloud but they were low and spot on time.
It really was a most moving occasion. The widow was ex-WRAF.
It really was a most moving occasion. The widow was ex-WRAF.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One of our party had travelled from Canada and we had come from up North. When he realised we were not casual tourist he bade us enter and we spent the next hour being guided around, looking for the sqn badge of the Canadian's uncle and the MiLs wartime boyfriend.
It was well worth the visit and many thanks to the lonely caretaker.
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He was 'just' an SAC with about seven years service.
Well said Soddim, ACM or SAC we're all the same once we're in our boxes, although there may be a few more brass hats in evidence at the former's funeral.
Seriously, Bitmap, I'm pleased to hear your brother was sent off in a fitting manner, the last service funeral I attended was a local ATC officer who was killed in a motorbike accident - and he had the full treatment, even as a "part-time" officer.
On a lighter, and I hope not disrespectful note, I am always intrigued by the term "full military honours". Are there any other sort; partial military honours for example? Or just a few?
Seriously, Bitmap, I'm pleased to hear your brother was sent off in a fitting manner, the last service funeral I attended was a local ATC officer who was killed in a motorbike accident - and he had the full treatment, even as a "part-time" officer.
On a lighter, and I hope not disrespectful note, I am always intrigued by the term "full military honours". Are there any other sort; partial military honours for example? Or just a few?
whatever the cause - off or on duty
Remember in the pub one evening a squaddie get teased a bit as think he was on a weeks leave and was 3rd time (so it was claimed ) he was in.
Landlord was ribbing him about it about being a part time soldier when beautiful reposte was "When I put my life on the line on behalf of HM Govt I didn't realise I could just do 9-5, was it like that when you were a squaddie", Landlord who was ex force went very quiet and apologised.
TTN is absolutely right.
When the (then) Imperial War Graves Commission was formed, one of the first things they set down was that there would be standard symbols of commemoration, to reflect the 'equality of sacrifice'. For those with a known and marked grave it's a stone 2'6" in height by 1'3" wide (or something like that). The various nations commemorated have a slightly different top to the headstone and British dead outside the war period also have a slightly different headstone top.
Whether you are Field Marshal The Lord Ismay or Private Bloggs, you are recognised equal before your God.
An interesting aside, I recall that at the funeral procession of a terrorist in Northern Ireland in the early '70s, the cortage was saluted by the Army personnel on security duties and I know that enemy personnel who were killed in UK were accorded an honorable burial and a lasting commemoration, as witness the Cannock Chase German cemetery.
This is far cry from the Indonesian Army, who left the remains of my friend in a jungle swamp in Borneo and murdered the three prisoners they captured alive.
O-D
When the (then) Imperial War Graves Commission was formed, one of the first things they set down was that there would be standard symbols of commemoration, to reflect the 'equality of sacrifice'. For those with a known and marked grave it's a stone 2'6" in height by 1'3" wide (or something like that). The various nations commemorated have a slightly different top to the headstone and British dead outside the war period also have a slightly different headstone top.
Whether you are Field Marshal The Lord Ismay or Private Bloggs, you are recognised equal before your God.
An interesting aside, I recall that at the funeral procession of a terrorist in Northern Ireland in the early '70s, the cortage was saluted by the Army personnel on security duties and I know that enemy personnel who were killed in UK were accorded an honorable burial and a lasting commemoration, as witness the Cannock Chase German cemetery.
This is far cry from the Indonesian Army, who left the remains of my friend in a jungle swamp in Borneo and murdered the three prisoners they captured alive.
O-D
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Thanks for all the replies, they have been very helpful. I'm sorry about the formatting in the orignal post, the line breaks didn't seem to go through.
Pontius Navigator - I managed a visit last year. The chaplin(?) there was very helpful and friendly, he opened the book for me on his page and then gave me some time - a very moving visit for me. I made sure they had a decent collection that day.
soddim - I put the just in quotes, it possibly came across not as I meant it.
Thanks again for your time. I really do hope that they continue with that level of support for breavments and it isn't something that will get affected with the defence cuts.
Pontius Navigator - I managed a visit last year. The chaplin(?) there was very helpful and friendly, he opened the book for me on his page and then gave me some time - a very moving visit for me. I made sure they had a decent collection that day.
soddim - I put the just in quotes, it possibly came across not as I meant it.
Thanks again for your time. I really do hope that they continue with that level of support for breavments and it isn't something that will get affected with the defence cuts.
Bitmap
In an erlier thread I recorded my recollections of RAF funerals abroad.
See here: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...arlier-era.htm
To expand on Old-Duffer's comments on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemeteries and headstones used another photo from my album to show what they look like at a cemetery in Sri Lanka and my notes about it.
I also have a photo of a service funeral procession taken at RAF Negombo in 1956/7 of a serviceman who committed suicide (a sergeant fired a Very pistol into his mouth), so suicides were accorded the same rites as normal and accidental deaths.
In an erlier thread I recorded my recollections of RAF funerals abroad.
See here: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...arlier-era.htm
To expand on Old-Duffer's comments on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemeteries and headstones used another photo from my album to show what they look like at a cemetery in Sri Lanka and my notes about it.
I was stationed at RAF China Bay in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1957 and didn't know until a visit in 2002 that a war graves cemetary existed in Trincomalee, just across the bay from China Bay where I was stationed.
One of the far-flung Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemeteries is the Trincomalee Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery in north eastern Sri Lanka which is one of six commonwealth war cemeteries in Sri Lanka.
The Trincomalee cemetery was originally the Combined Services Cemetery, but was taken over by the Admiralty from the military in April 1948 for use as a permanent naval cemetery. On the withdrawal of UK Forces from Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1957 it became the property of the Sri Lanka Government who granted the Commonwealth War Graves Commission security of tenure in perpetuity. Save for a few post-war and non-war graves it is purely a war cemetery. The non-war graves are those of men of the Merchant Navy whose death was not due to war service and of civilians, of whom some were employees of the Admiralty; while the post-war graves were dependents of servicemen, civilian employees of the Admiralty and dependents of such employees. The cemetery contains 360 named graves and 4 unknown.
As expected most graves contain the remains of naval servicemen who died when the Japanese bombed the Royal Naval Eastern Fleet base at Trincomalee in April 1942. (Photo taken in May 2002 shows the caretaker responsible for the upkeep of the cemetery holding the cemetery visitors book and very proud to show visitors the entry signed by Princess Anne that she made on a visit to Trinco, date unknown).
One of the far-flung Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemeteries is the Trincomalee Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery in north eastern Sri Lanka which is one of six commonwealth war cemeteries in Sri Lanka.
The Trincomalee cemetery was originally the Combined Services Cemetery, but was taken over by the Admiralty from the military in April 1948 for use as a permanent naval cemetery. On the withdrawal of UK Forces from Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1957 it became the property of the Sri Lanka Government who granted the Commonwealth War Graves Commission security of tenure in perpetuity. Save for a few post-war and non-war graves it is purely a war cemetery. The non-war graves are those of men of the Merchant Navy whose death was not due to war service and of civilians, of whom some were employees of the Admiralty; while the post-war graves were dependents of servicemen, civilian employees of the Admiralty and dependents of such employees. The cemetery contains 360 named graves and 4 unknown.
As expected most graves contain the remains of naval servicemen who died when the Japanese bombed the Royal Naval Eastern Fleet base at Trincomalee in April 1942. (Photo taken in May 2002 shows the caretaker responsible for the upkeep of the cemetery holding the cemetery visitors book and very proud to show visitors the entry signed by Princess Anne that she made on a visit to Trinco, date unknown).
The 'equality in death' - friend or foe - can be occasionally testing. At a northern ADGE unit about 20 years ago, an NCO committed suicide by hanging himself from a railway bridge, whilst wearing various female garments. Further investigations of his background revealed some pretty awful activities that his wife and family where unaware of. Nonetheless, and quite rightly, he was awarded a full military funeral, but there was quite a bit of chuntering around the station at the time, by personnel questioning the approriateness of this service recognition. Tricky
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It is coincidental that this subject has come up on Pprune as last weekend I was standing in the churchyard at Benningborough where the military graves from RAF Linton upon Ouse are buried.
There is an military plot with standard CWGC headstones but amidst those military rows are two civilian headstones of military personnel which are in a state of dilapidation. One is of a young Sergeant Pilot who was killed in 1939 and the other is of Group Captain Frank Garraway who was killed in a Luftwaffe air raid on Linton in 1941 and who after whom the "Garraway Room" in the Officers Mess is named.
I know that with defence cuts nowadays personnel are at a premium but I thought it might be respectful if the existing RAF personnel from Linton took a few hours off to clean up the two civilian graves.
There is an military plot with standard CWGC headstones but amidst those military rows are two civilian headstones of military personnel which are in a state of dilapidation. One is of a young Sergeant Pilot who was killed in 1939 and the other is of Group Captain Frank Garraway who was killed in a Luftwaffe air raid on Linton in 1941 and who after whom the "Garraway Room" in the Officers Mess is named.
I know that with defence cuts nowadays personnel are at a premium but I thought it might be respectful if the existing RAF personnel from Linton took a few hours off to clean up the two civilian graves.
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It is coincidental that this subject has come up on Pprune as last weekend I was standing in the churchyard at Benningborough where the military graves from RAF Linton upon Ouse are buried.
There is an military plot with standard CWGC headstones but amidst those military rows are two civilian headstones of military personnel which are in a state of dilapidation. One is of a young Sergeant Pilot who was killed in 1939 and the other is of Group Captain Frank Garraway who was killed in a Luftwaffe air raid on Linton in 1941 and who after whom the "Garraway Room" in the Officers Mess is named.
I know that with defence cuts nowadays personnel are at a premium but I thought it might be respectful if the existing RAF personnel from Linton took a few hours off to clean up the two civilian graves.
There is an military plot with standard CWGC headstones but amidst those military rows are two civilian headstones of military personnel which are in a state of dilapidation. One is of a young Sergeant Pilot who was killed in 1939 and the other is of Group Captain Frank Garraway who was killed in a Luftwaffe air raid on Linton in 1941 and who after whom the "Garraway Room" in the Officers Mess is named.
I know that with defence cuts nowadays personnel are at a premium but I thought it might be respectful if the existing RAF personnel from Linton took a few hours off to clean up the two civilian graves.
Found this in "Courage Remembered"
These privately (and frequently privately marked) war graves are inspected by the Commission's staff. If the marker is found to have deteriorated, the Commission offers to replace it with a standard Commission headstone, at it's own expense. Next of kin frequently offer to accept this offer, as not only is a new headstone supplied, but maintenance then becomes the Commission's responsibility for all time.
I discovered the private graves of William Rhodes-Moorhouse VC and his son (who had a DFC) in a private plot at Beaminster Dorset about 30 years ago.
Fortunately, I was able to get the IOT at Cranwell to add it as a project for one of their officer cadet projects and the graves plot was cleaned up. I also gave the local ATC sqn a sum of money to get suitable plants and they agreed to look after the plot - I wonder if they are still doing so??!!
Old Duffer
Fortunately, I was able to get the IOT at Cranwell to add it as a project for one of their officer cadet projects and the graves plot was cleaned up. I also gave the local ATC sqn a sum of money to get suitable plants and they agreed to look after the plot - I wonder if they are still doing so??!!
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It would be worthwhile if one of the admin gurus could post up the rules here. Most service personnel are no longer serving when they pass on. Every single one of them deserve a final send off.
Well said Soddim.
I guess I'll miss it but wouldn't it be nice to think that something flew past as you were popped into your last resting ground?
Well said Soddim.
I guess I'll miss it but wouldn't it be nice to think that something flew past as you were popped into your last resting ground?
Thank you, November4,
The graves are on a hill at the rear of Parnham House in Beaminster, Dorset and the plot is enclosed by an iron fence (as can be seen).
I had to climb the fence and then search through many years of accumulated undergrowth to find the graves. Apparently, because it was a private plot, the owners of the house (an internationally renowned cabinet maker) were - I was told - not responsible or did not own the land. The care of the site had been entrusted to some local people but they were then either dead or unable to take care of the place.
Your photograph shows that the site has obviously been recovered to some reasonable standard but the bumpy ground shows that it had been neglected for sometime. I hope it is now being looked after as anyone's last resting place should be.
Old Duffer
The graves are on a hill at the rear of Parnham House in Beaminster, Dorset and the plot is enclosed by an iron fence (as can be seen).
I had to climb the fence and then search through many years of accumulated undergrowth to find the graves. Apparently, because it was a private plot, the owners of the house (an internationally renowned cabinet maker) were - I was told - not responsible or did not own the land. The care of the site had been entrusted to some local people but they were then either dead or unable to take care of the place.
Your photograph shows that the site has obviously been recovered to some reasonable standard but the bumpy ground shows that it had been neglected for sometime. I hope it is now being looked after as anyone's last resting place should be.
Old Duffer
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WAR GRAVES IN RUSSIA
I sometimes visit the Murmansk area and when weather conditions prevent my helicopter trip to the Kola I vist local places of interest
There are war graves at Murmansk from both world wars. They are maintained to an excellent standard
The local Russian people remember with gratitude out help during the second WW but of course our earlier "interference" is less well regarded
There are war graves at Murmansk from both world wars. They are maintained to an excellent standard
The local Russian people remember with gratitude out help during the second WW but of course our earlier "interference" is less well regarded
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29 Squadron did the job!
My dad passed away last year, 2 days before he died he said 'get me a flypast for my funeral'.... My first thought was 'not going to happen'...
After he died, I called RAF Conningsby, spoke to the visitor liaison officer as I thought they might like to know. Dad was in 151 and 29 Squadrons in WW2 - 151 is disbanded but 29 is still going.
A bit later I had a phone call from the Squadron Leader saying they were doing what they could to arrange a flypast. After several e-mails, the funeral took place and bang on time, 2 Typhoons from 29(R) Squadron came over the hotel where we had the 'wake'... Dad would have been so please.
So, if you want a flypast, ASK!!!
After he died, I called RAF Conningsby, spoke to the visitor liaison officer as I thought they might like to know. Dad was in 151 and 29 Squadrons in WW2 - 151 is disbanded but 29 is still going.
A bit later I had a phone call from the Squadron Leader saying they were doing what they could to arrange a flypast. After several e-mails, the funeral took place and bang on time, 2 Typhoons from 29(R) Squadron came over the hotel where we had the 'wake'... Dad would have been so please.
So, if you want a flypast, ASK!!!