RAF funeral question
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Visiting Officers and Effects Officers
"Every deceased person's family is assigned a 'Visiting Officer' - it used to be called the 'Effects Officer'. This person provides the liaison between the service and the family and is there to help with all the many issues which arise."
My recollection is that when I was an OC P2 in the 80s, I found that both should be appointed and so on the few occasions necessary and where I got (typically) squadron co-operation for both, I could have an experienced officer for VO and a more junior dealing with the effects. There was no need for the EO to meet the family but would deal with all the small, but important items, feeding to the VO for family contact. I never understood why so many places combined the jobs. I have a vague memory that in one case I used a holding officer as EO and it was done very well but of course that person would have been unsuitable to meet the family.
Prepared to be told that 30 year old memory is totally flawed, though.
My recollection is that when I was an OC P2 in the 80s, I found that both should be appointed and so on the few occasions necessary and where I got (typically) squadron co-operation for both, I could have an experienced officer for VO and a more junior dealing with the effects. There was no need for the EO to meet the family but would deal with all the small, but important items, feeding to the VO for family contact. I never understood why so many places combined the jobs. I have a vague memory that in one case I used a holding officer as EO and it was done very well but of course that person would have been unsuitable to meet the family.
Prepared to be told that 30 year old memory is totally flawed, though.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Kalgoorlie, W.A. , Australia
Age: 86
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was mentioned earlier that C.W.G.C. headstones where a standard design, however they are not despite similar appearance made of a standard material. When visiting Reichswald Forest Cemetery a few years ago the head gardener (IIRC a Canadian) explained that they had to use a different source of limestone due to the harsher German winter to that used in Normandy and this policy extended worldwide taking into account of local climatic conditions. Further this may explain why in the two cemeteries in Kanchanaburi (Thailand) tablets are used and not headstones, also the Gallipoli cemeteries use tablets.
Last edited by Pom Pax; 9th Jul 2014 at 18:48. Reason: Correcting link.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You only truly realise that the military is one big, close family after you leave.
Going back a few years to Bitmap's original post, there is no such thing as "just an SAC".
Going back a few years to Bitmap's original post, there is no such thing as "just an SAC".
The Rhodes-Moorhouse Graves
Old Duffer,
I can vouch for IOT doing the good deed on those graves - I was the IOT Flt Cdr whose cadets did the cleaning. We were on our way to go shark fishing in Cornwall (herrings were the only sharks we caught though). If memory serves there were 2 old ladies who used to look after the graves but it was getting beyond them. They were delighted with our efforts and lent us some pictures and reports to go in the Project Report.
Time has flown by as it was actually in September 1980, on 45 IOT Cse, my second but first at Cranwell. The Project being Shark Fishing was the result of having a Marine Branch cadet on the Flight and a Sqn Cdr who was also Marine Branch. Our visit to the graves was as a sort of quid pro quo to be allowed to go so far afield.
I can vouch for IOT doing the good deed on those graves - I was the IOT Flt Cdr whose cadets did the cleaning. We were on our way to go shark fishing in Cornwall (herrings were the only sharks we caught though). If memory serves there were 2 old ladies who used to look after the graves but it was getting beyond them. They were delighted with our efforts and lent us some pictures and reports to go in the Project Report.
Time has flown by as it was actually in September 1980, on 45 IOT Cse, my second but first at Cranwell. The Project being Shark Fishing was the result of having a Marine Branch cadet on the Flight and a Sqn Cdr who was also Marine Branch. Our visit to the graves was as a sort of quid pro quo to be allowed to go so far afield.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SALISBURY
Age: 76
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airborne ceremony
During my many years on Nimrods I was privileged to be involved in the scattering of the ashes of 2 ex RAF personnel. On each occasion the padre conducted a short service over the intercom & at the correct moment the ashes were dispatched down one of the sonobuoy launch tubes. As you can imagine these were both very moving occasions.
Re flypasts, after my father in law (ex WW2 Wellington Wop Ag) passed away 3 years ago, the service was held in Salisbury before retiring to our local Hampshire pub for the wake. OC 206 Sqn at Boscombe kindly supplied a Tucano which gave a spectacular flypast & wing over, bang on cue.
A fitting send off for a fine gentleman.
Re flypasts, after my father in law (ex WW2 Wellington Wop Ag) passed away 3 years ago, the service was held in Salisbury before retiring to our local Hampshire pub for the wake. OC 206 Sqn at Boscombe kindly supplied a Tucano which gave a spectacular flypast & wing over, bang on cue.
A fitting send off for a fine gentleman.
My father David 'Pop' Morton Ex RAF Master Pilot, died in 2013 and on the 3rd July he would have been 94. For his birthday he went flying again - from the Old Tay Bridge in Perth and into the River Tay, his birthplace. I picked the spot as it was the area he used to fish as a boy and a resident of Perth. A lovely summer evening and loads of champagne afterwards in North Queensferry. He would have appreciated the humour of the moment.
Back in the 60s I was hauled in to the Boss and told that as I was O i/c Guard of Honour I had just won the job of arranging the cremation at Norwich of a Flt Sgt who had died and had no relatives. As a 24 year old I found the whole prospect a bit daunting, until OC Regt and the SWO appeared offering "help and advice". The station gave the guy a first class send off and I was honoured to have been part of it.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: egsh
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Around the time that the (then) wife or ex wife of the heir to the throne was killed and a funeral with incredible pomp was held, I helped a neighbour whose father had died.
A retired Squadron Leader.
He had been proud of his service, and I tried to organise some sort of RAF presence at his crematorium attendance. There was no shortage of RAF units in Norfolk at the time, but the best I was offered was a contingent from the Air Cadets.
They turned up 20 minutes after the commital. The next service was by then in progress.
At least his cap, epaulettes and medals were on the coffin, and civilian friends and neighbours had given suitably warm sending off remarks.
I was not impressed by the force's treatment of a loyal officer.
A retired Squadron Leader.
He had been proud of his service, and I tried to organise some sort of RAF presence at his crematorium attendance. There was no shortage of RAF units in Norfolk at the time, but the best I was offered was a contingent from the Air Cadets.
They turned up 20 minutes after the commital. The next service was by then in progress.
At least his cap, epaulettes and medals were on the coffin, and civilian friends and neighbours had given suitably warm sending off remarks.
I was not impressed by the force's treatment of a loyal officer.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: egsh
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wander00
I was deeply saddened by the treatment given to my good friend and neighbour.
He had been present at the signing of the armistice, had given loyal service to his squadron and his arm, and I was having to console his daughter against this lack of basic respect for a meritorious officer and basically decent bloke to boot, while seeing sycophantic outpourings of grief for a "personality".
I was upset by the contrast.
RIP, Jimmy.
I was deeply saddened by the treatment given to my good friend and neighbour.
He had been present at the signing of the armistice, had given loyal service to his squadron and his arm, and I was having to console his daughter against this lack of basic respect for a meritorious officer and basically decent bloke to boot, while seeing sycophantic outpourings of grief for a "personality".
I was upset by the contrast.
RIP, Jimmy.
Hindsight, as they say, is a wonderful thing.
I realise that the immediate aftermath of a death is not the time to always think straight and I find the case reported above to be embarrassing to me as a former serviceman and distressing to those involved.
Perhaps some pointers might help.
First, seek advice from the RBL and RAFA branches locally or SSAFA-Forces Help if preferred. This will lead to a union flag or RAF ensign at the very least to cover the coffin.
If there is an RAF base nearby, approach the Community Relations Officer as a first stop. If the individual has any squadron affiliations, approach the sqn association - if still active - or the sqn itself - if still in being.
A local air cadet unit might help with a uniformed presence but they are fairly tightly bound and have an approvals process to be followed to ensure the activity is authorised.
A sense of realism is also needed. I apologise if this is taken the wrong way but it helps to manage expectations in the current era.
If a civilian had worked for many years for the same company, which might have been taken over several times and in which few/none of the current workforce, knew the deceased person it is unlikely that anybody from the former employer would turn out. The only thing likely, is a possible letter of condolence afterwards. Upsetting and bitter though the pill is, the RAF is a similar organisation.
That said, there have been several recent cases reported in the press, where concerned individuals have managed to muster sizeable congregations to pay their respects to a deceased veteran, even when most did not know the person.
In all of this, the family's wishes are paramount. Two weeks ago I attended two funerals with service connections on following days. At the first, the deceased person had specified bright colours. At the second, an ATC contingent - with which the deceased was involved - paraded with their sqn banner and there was a good show of uniforms amongst those attending.
Old Duffer
I realise that the immediate aftermath of a death is not the time to always think straight and I find the case reported above to be embarrassing to me as a former serviceman and distressing to those involved.
Perhaps some pointers might help.
First, seek advice from the RBL and RAFA branches locally or SSAFA-Forces Help if preferred. This will lead to a union flag or RAF ensign at the very least to cover the coffin.
If there is an RAF base nearby, approach the Community Relations Officer as a first stop. If the individual has any squadron affiliations, approach the sqn association - if still active - or the sqn itself - if still in being.
A local air cadet unit might help with a uniformed presence but they are fairly tightly bound and have an approvals process to be followed to ensure the activity is authorised.
A sense of realism is also needed. I apologise if this is taken the wrong way but it helps to manage expectations in the current era.
If a civilian had worked for many years for the same company, which might have been taken over several times and in which few/none of the current workforce, knew the deceased person it is unlikely that anybody from the former employer would turn out. The only thing likely, is a possible letter of condolence afterwards. Upsetting and bitter though the pill is, the RAF is a similar organisation.
That said, there have been several recent cases reported in the press, where concerned individuals have managed to muster sizeable congregations to pay their respects to a deceased veteran, even when most did not know the person.
In all of this, the family's wishes are paramount. Two weeks ago I attended two funerals with service connections on following days. At the first, the deceased person had specified bright colours. At the second, an ATC contingent - with which the deceased was involved - paraded with their sqn banner and there was a good show of uniforms amongst those attending.
Old Duffer
January 2012 a good friend of mine was buried with full honours and a Tornado fly past. He died in service with well over 30 yrs served. I visit the grave on a regular basis and am shocked that it still does not have a gravestone after two and a half years. I am not in contact with his next of kin, however at the time of burial was under the impression he would be getting a military headstone. Do any pruners have experiences of time scales for this sort?
OD, the RAF Ensign should never be used to drape a coffin - Queens Regulations (RAF), part 1, para 165(7) - only the Union Flag.
Last edited by Vortex_Generator; 6th Aug 2014 at 08:32.
Nobody in the RAF is any less important as a person because of rank. In my 36 years I knew many great personalities of all ranks.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Japan
Age: 71
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Warmtoast
Your Trincomalee photo jogged a memory cell. Several years ago when on holiday in Sri Lanka, my partner and I came across a tiny graveyard for colonial ex-pats. So many dead, so young, and mostly died of (now) preventable diseases.
The groundsman could have been the brother of the chap in your photo. The graveyard was immaculate, and he was very proud to show us around. It was a labour of love for him. Respect.
Your Trincomalee photo jogged a memory cell. Several years ago when on holiday in Sri Lanka, my partner and I came across a tiny graveyard for colonial ex-pats. So many dead, so young, and mostly died of (now) preventable diseases.
The groundsman could have been the brother of the chap in your photo. The graveyard was immaculate, and he was very proud to show us around. It was a labour of love for him. Respect.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Age: 54
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Following the death of an Airman in an RTC at Leuchars the burial party were selected from those that had just been drilling for the AOCs parade.
The funeral was terrible. Black armbands were issued but were too big and had no safety pins so they slipped down to our wrists as we marched.
The present arms saw several bayonets fly off and stick in the grass, quivering.
The volley of shots was ragged, without blank firing adapters most weapons failed to fire a second time.
After this the Regiment were tasked with all future funerals.
The funeral was terrible. Black armbands were issued but were too big and had no safety pins so they slipped down to our wrists as we marched.
The present arms saw several bayonets fly off and stick in the grass, quivering.
The volley of shots was ragged, without blank firing adapters most weapons failed to fire a second time.
After this the Regiment were tasked with all future funerals.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bewdley
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few years ago I was involved with the change of a headstone for an Swiss/American ATA Pilot who was killed 7th Dec 1941.
The family could not be contacted at the time of his death but now had been visiting the grave since the early 60s.
When the new headstone was being cut to replace the damaged one the CWGC said that the family could add a few lines since this had not been possible when the original stone was cut.
The pilot had served in the USMC in the mid 1930s and the family wanted "Semper Fi" added. The CWGC agreed but asked them to get permission from the USMC.
On request, not only was permission given by return but it was also stated that the USMC would give military honours if the family wished.
Included in the reply was a copy of the USMC standing orders for funeral requests.
http://www.marines.mil/News/Messages...s-support.aspx
Item 6 is probably the best line in a standing order I have ever seen.
"THERE ARE NO EX-MARINES. THERE ARE ONLY MARINES. THOSE OF US WHO CURRENTLY ARE HONORED TO WEAR THE UNIFORM MUST CONTINUE THE LONG LINE OF OUR PREDECESSORS IN UPHOLDING THE INTEGRITY OF THESE WORDS.
OUR SUPPORT OF FUNERAL HONORS FOR OUR MARINES WILL SPEAK LOUDER THAN ANY WORDS."
The final part in Item 3 is great USMC Commandant speak:
"MY EXPECTATION IS THAT THE SITUATIONS WHERE THE MINIMUM NUMBERS OF MARINES ARE USED WILL BE FEW AND BY EXCEPTION.
COMMANDERS WILL MAKE EVERY ATTEMPT TO PROVIDE MORE THAN THE MINIMUM DETAIL SIZE AS DICTATED BY OPS/PERS TEMPO."
Would that we also have a similar standing order!
Regards
Ross
The family could not be contacted at the time of his death but now had been visiting the grave since the early 60s.
When the new headstone was being cut to replace the damaged one the CWGC said that the family could add a few lines since this had not been possible when the original stone was cut.
The pilot had served in the USMC in the mid 1930s and the family wanted "Semper Fi" added. The CWGC agreed but asked them to get permission from the USMC.
On request, not only was permission given by return but it was also stated that the USMC would give military honours if the family wished.
Included in the reply was a copy of the USMC standing orders for funeral requests.
http://www.marines.mil/News/Messages...s-support.aspx
Item 6 is probably the best line in a standing order I have ever seen.
"THERE ARE NO EX-MARINES. THERE ARE ONLY MARINES. THOSE OF US WHO CURRENTLY ARE HONORED TO WEAR THE UNIFORM MUST CONTINUE THE LONG LINE OF OUR PREDECESSORS IN UPHOLDING THE INTEGRITY OF THESE WORDS.
OUR SUPPORT OF FUNERAL HONORS FOR OUR MARINES WILL SPEAK LOUDER THAN ANY WORDS."
The final part in Item 3 is great USMC Commandant speak:
"MY EXPECTATION IS THAT THE SITUATIONS WHERE THE MINIMUM NUMBERS OF MARINES ARE USED WILL BE FEW AND BY EXCEPTION.
COMMANDERS WILL MAKE EVERY ATTEMPT TO PROVIDE MORE THAN THE MINIMUM DETAIL SIZE AS DICTATED BY OPS/PERS TEMPO."
Would that we also have a similar standing order!
Regards
Ross
Gentleman Aviator
Sadly it doesn't always seem to be the case, but this Forum has been instrumental on a number of occasions in getting representation - often from Cadets who did make it on time - to the funerals of fallen comrades who apparently had no-one to mark their passing.
In a busy and ever more thinly spread regular RAF (now smaller than the Met Police
) it increasingly falls to the volunteer of one sort or another to step up to the plate and provide the "light blue footprint".
Which they generally do extremely well........
In a busy and ever more thinly spread regular RAF (now smaller than the Met Police
) it increasingly falls to the volunteer of one sort or another to step up to the plate and provide the "light blue footprint". Which they generally do extremely well........