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Old 18th Jun 2011, 06:27   #101 (permalink)
 
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Likelihood of UNSCR on the Falklands? Absolutely no chance - UK has the veto. As for the Argentine President harping on about the UK ignoring General Assembly resolutions, she might wish to consider her own country,s behaviour in this respect!
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 11:22   #102 (permalink)
 
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And do you think they give a flying F?

Once the South American coalition gets up and running the Argentines will take the rather large ticket of OIL to the bargaining table, then watch out.

South America backs Falklands claim - Defence Management

BBC News - Argentina rallies regional support over Falklands

and most importantly

Argentina's president stokes up claim to the Falklands - Telegraph

stoking the fires.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 11:54   #103 (permalink)
 
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Fascinating thread. I am neither an Argentine nor UK citizen but have visited both countries, so it is interesting to see the arguements. It was interesting to read how many times the Falklands/Islas Malvinas have changed hands.

It seems that Kirschner is using nationalist sentiments to draw attention away from (red herring) her own domestic problems in Argentina. This was a tactic of the military dictatorship during the early 1980's. What they didn't recon with was the resolve of Thatcher who, herself, was having her own set of problems at home. Argentina's military defeat caused great humiliation to the dictatorship in Argentina, probably helped lead to its demise, and helped raise approvals of the "Iron Lady" at home.

I see political stir-ups being used as effective tools to divert attention away from "real" difficult domestic problems by countries as diverse as the United States, China, Nicaragua, Bahrain, Pakistan, Cuba, North Korea . . . really an endless list probably encompassing most of the World's countries.

What is interesting is that numerous Latin Americans, during the 1980's, believed (perhaps naively) that a supposedly idealistic and law-abiding United States would actually back Argentina, rather than the United Kingdom, on the Falkland Crisis, based on the Monroe Doctrine, which was used as justification by the United States to fend off Soviet and Eastern Block involvment in Latin America.

It is also to see that a sometimes irrational fancy for "the confetti of empire" still exists in many parts of the World.

Last edited by Panama Jack; 18th Jun 2011 at 12:07.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 12:56   #104 (permalink)
 
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PJ...like most of what you say....objective viewpoints always help. Not sure about the imperial confetti comment though? BTW...I feel sure the Monroe Doctrine was put together to prevent further imperial adventures into South America, minimise the extant colonial powers influence in the region, not least by the UK...and ensure the southern security of US birders.....it predated Cold War politics by some way!
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 16:10   #105 (permalink)
 
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What capability do the Argies have to accomplish their goal this time?

Are they better off or not?

What lessons did they learn from the last go at taking the Falklands?

I am sure the British have some idea of what did not work and what might be a much better way to deal with the situation.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 16:45   #106 (permalink)
 
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Surely the "what didn't work last time" was the defence of the Falklands in the first place.

The Royal Marines of NP8901, for all their efforts, were not up to the task of defending the FIs against such odds.

Things are a little different down there now days and whilst some may pour scorn on there being 'only' four Typhoons they are a hell of a lot more suitable to the task in hand than the assortment of elderly, short-legged and poorly supported a/c the Argentinians can through at the islands. Of course their is also the advanced warning that forces based on the islands would have of an approaching Argentine force, something not available back in 1982.

The Argentine military is in a far worse position than the British. Whilst the British military has been cutback in numbers the technology of those forces that are available far outweighs that available to the Argentines, much of their forces still being equipped with that which wasn't sent across the sea to later be destoryed or captured by the British.

I don't believe any changing of 'ownership' of the Falklands will happen as a result of military action, rather more likely it will take a political form. But of course the UN would never force the population of lands to accept governing by another nation against their right to self-determination would they?
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 17:49   #107 (permalink)
 
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Give me a sub for a day and only 3 missiles (the non nuclear variety) and I reckon I could have the Argentinians screaming for an end to any war. The smoke that the 15 million odd citizens of Buenos Aires would see billowing from the military sector at Aeroparque Jorge Newberry (Cristina could see that one from her balcony in the Casa Rosada), El Palomar Air Base and Mariano Moreno Air Base would see a retreat quicker than you could say 'General Belgrano'!

Seriously though, if you talk to any educated Argentinian you will realise that they don't give a rats about the Falklands much less entertain any thoughts about retaking them. Their armed force have had the second lowest defence expenditure in South America for the past 20+ years and have no new kit - certainly no match for a Typhoon with ASRAAM and AMRAAM!
Presidents (particularly the Peronists) will however continue to appeal to the uneducated by merely mentioning Las Malvinas, we just need to ignore it as such.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 19:06   #108 (permalink)
 
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having been to the Falklands a few times I think it is safe to say that you could offer the Islanders a million each to change nationality and would politely get told to FO by the very vast majority and rightly so. Old plastic face is acting, like most argie politicians do, like a spoilt child saying I want all the time expecting to get. Any argie government will be very wary of putting too much money into their armed forces because of their habit of turning around and overthrowing those in charge. It is purely an election year in argentina and it is always a vote winning topic.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 19:21   #109 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
The Argentine military is in a far worse position than the British. Whilst the British military has been cutback in numbers the technology of those forces that are available far outweighs that available to the Argentines, much of their forces still being equipped with that which wasn't sent across the sea to later be destoryed or captured by the British.
Everybody always assumes next war fought will be the same as the last.

A deal done with another neighbouring country or a faraway one (famous for its food after the pub) to supply some of the muscle to aid Argentina and get oil leases as a repayment is another way of looking at what could happen.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 20:00   #110 (permalink)
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I enjoyed it 29 years ago. Bring em on.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 20:08   #111 (permalink)
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I enjoyed it 29 years ago. Bring em on.
Do you think those left behind in Falklands graves, or buried at sea, enjoyed it as much as you did ?
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 23:14   #112 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by 10W
Do you think those left behind in Falklands graves, or buried at sea, enjoyed it as much as you did ?
What's wrong with enjoying your job? Last year there were over 1,000 fatalities in aircraft accidents worldwide and over 200,000 deaths and injuries on British roads. Does that mean no one should be allowed to enjoy flying or driving?
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 23:28   #113 (permalink)
 
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First falklander gets argie nationality

BBC News - Falkland man chooses Argentine citizenship

This guy is a traitor as far as I'm concerned. I would revoke his british citizenship never to return it to him.

Does he not realise he has been used as a pawn in very carefully staged politcal propaganda.

I for one am proud to be British.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 23:31   #114 (permalink)
 
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10W are you really a "Moderator". Better get some real time in if you are.
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Give me a sub for a day and only 3 missiles (the non nuclear variety) and I reckon I could have the Argentinians screaming for an end to any war.
A bit like we're doing in Libya against another third world dictator?
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Old 19th Jun 2011, 00:03   #115 (permalink)
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A deal done with another neighbouring country or a faraway one (famous for its food after the pub) to supply some of the muscle to aid Argentina and get oil leases as a repayment is another way of looking at what could happen.
The neighbours probably couldn't muster much better equipment than Argentina at the moment, then there is the little problem of motivating other South Americans to go and give their lives for the Falklands. Personally I can't see China openly supporting a South American offensive and effectively taking on the rest of the civilised world.

An airborne assault? Four Typhoons and ground based anti-aircraft missile batteries could make an awful mess of transport aircraft positioning for a mass drop. A sea borne assault? - submarines.

How would Argentina neutralise these defences?
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Old 19th Jun 2011, 02:21   #116 (permalink)
 
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Bit snotty to ask such a question of those who have seen the Dragon don't you think 10W?

When folks go to War....some folks die in the process. Those that stay at home safe should take their hat off to those that went and those who were lost protecting other folk's freedom.

I assume you will be offering an apology for the tone of your post seeing as how you are a Moderator and all. Mod's are supposed to stay out of the fuss so I have heard.....not provoke one.
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Old 19th Jun 2011, 09:13   #117 (permalink)
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We all took the Queen's shilling and we knew the risks. I lost mates, but we would do it again if we had to.
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Old 19th Jun 2011, 09:31   #118 (permalink)
 
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I can't see China openly supporting a South American offensive and effectively taking on the rest of the civilised world
I cannot see them jeopardising their export trade either; not for the sake of a supply originating halfway around the world.
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Old 19th Jun 2011, 13:13   #119 (permalink)
 
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a bigger risk to China is jeapordising their food IMPORTS. For instance China are the worlds biggest importers of Soy oil, 50% of which comes from Argentina. In 2009 this represented something like $700,000,000 of business. The Chinese alternative is to buy from the USA. The Chinese recently shot themselves in the foot by creating a trade war with Argentina, banning the soy imports: so the Argentines sold it all to India (though at a reduced price), leaving the Chinese with a serious shortfall. When you consider how important Soy oil is to the Chinese, this is a serious issue. Chinese investment in other food production in Argentina is big: major irrigation schemes, railway improvements (to the ports), and purchases of corn, corn oil and other staples.
I'm sure that if the Chinese were given an ultimatum: food for weapons, they'd jump pretty quickly

And don't forget Argentina is well resourced in metals

Last edited by jamesdevice; 19th Jun 2011 at 13:36.
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Old 19th Jun 2011, 14:44   #120 (permalink)
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FODPLod

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What's wrong with enjoying your job? Last year there were over 1,000 fatalities in aircraft accidents worldwide and over 200,000 deaths and injuries on British roads. Does that mean no one should be allowed to enjoy flying or driving?
Absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying your job and I don't see the point of your accident examples in this context. My statement was more aimed at the poster seeming to enjoy the fighting which took place and wishing for it to happen again. Why would anyone in a civilised society want war if other means have not been fully exhausted ? I am not sure that the millions of brave servicemen and women maimed and killed defending our country and our freedoms over the centuries would say that they got enjoyment out of becoming a casualty or suffering the horrors of war. A sense of honour, pride, bravery, righteousness, gratitude .... yes, they could claim all those things, and rightly so with my absolute full support, but enjoyment ? I think not, and anyone who claims so I think is being flippant and disrespectful to those who have made the sacrifices to our people and our nation, even if they were involved themselves. Others have freedom to not agree with me of course, thanks precisely to those who gave their lives.

A close family friend served in the Falklands in command of a Type 42 destroyer, subsequently commanding a Royal Navy mobile airfield and retiring as the crab equivalent of an AVM. When he talks of the conflict, he doesn't talk of enjoyment ... ever. He talks of pride in his crew and our armed forces who faced all sorts of adversity and challenges. He talks of the fear of being potentially attacked 24 hours a day by the enemy in high stress situations with equipment which did not always do what it was supposed to. He talks of the horror of losing colleagues and ships in his fleet and the helplessness he felt at times to prevent those losses. He talks of the deep regret and sadness at his ship downing an AAC Gazelle and killing 4 of our own servicemen in the fog of war, with a visible tear in his eye. He talks modestly of the satisfaction that our forces triumphed and the war was ended as quickly as it could have been with a victory. And he talks more than anything of the relief of coming home to his family and friends, whilst acknowledging that many did not get that chance. He has earned my respect, and he does not find war enjoyable nor glorify it one little bit. His experiences speak volumes for me.


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Quote:
10W are you really a "Moderator". Better get some real time in if you are.
I'll swing it round if I may. Do you know what Moderator means ?

Some of the meanings are:

1) Presides over a meeting, FORUM, or debate. (we can tick that box)
2) A person who monitors the conversations in an on-line chatroom or Forum for bad language, inappropriate content, etc. (another box ticked)
3) Someone who mediates disputes and attempts to avoid violence. (I'd tick the last part in respect of this debate concerning the call for a war put forward by some posters)

An earlier meaning a few centuries ago was that a moderator was a 'controller' or 'ruler' so I guess that's the day job covered too

As for getting some time in, I think you'll find that it's not a requirement for a Moderator on a site run principally (but not exclusively) for civil professional pilots, to have any military service whatsoever. Most Moderators on this site haven't and I am no exception. Some have of course, and they provide a degree of balance against us civvies and blunties no doubt. They bring different skills, philosophies, and ideas to the table. Note that I didn't say better skills, just different ones which complement those which other Mods provide. Entirely appropriate for a democratic 'society' which is not an autocratic military regime I'd say.

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Bit snotty to ask such a question of those who have seen the Dragon don't you think 10W?
Maybe what I see as flippancy is a serviceman's defence mechanism of the horrors they went through. Only those that served will know if that is the case for them as individuals, and they have PPRuNe as at least one channel to enlighten everyone else about it and increase our understanding if indeed it is the case. But if I see it coming across as disrespectful, which is my current opinion and of course up for challenge, then I won't simply keep quiet. I'll ask the question and not be scared of the outcome. It's permitted in the civvy world to challenge and be challenged and the sign of a healthy democracy and freedom.

Quote:
When folks go to War....some folks die in the process. Those that stay at home safe should take their hat off to those that went and those who were lost protecting other folk's freedom.
Indeed, my hat is permanently off to our servicemen and women, even in those wars whose political motives and subterfuge I disagree with. It is after all ''Older men who declare war, but it is the youth that must fight and die''.

Quote:
I assume you will be offering an apology for the tone of your post seeing as how you are a Moderator and all. Mod's are supposed to stay out of the fuss so I have heard.....not provoke one.
Never assume. I won't apologise for thinking about the sacrifice made by our young men and women and won't refrain from questioning someone who I interpret or perceive as, in my opinion, making light of war and it's consequences. If they clarify what they really mean and my interpretation is wrong, then I am happy to see their point of view and acknowledge that. We'll accept that we have differing opinions and move on.

Other than my title on the info box left of here, I didn't make any comment as a Moderator, or attempt to provoke anything. I come as a poster who believes that those who gave up their lives should be treated with respect and talk of going to war should be treated with gravitas and careful reflection. I can accept that the Forces have their banter and their sense of humour is black and very different from many of us in the mainstream of society. I just don't find anyone wishing to have a war so they can enjoy themselves very funny, which is how the post reads to me. But each to their own.

Navaleye

Quote:
We all took the Queen's shilling and we knew the risks. I lost mates, but we would do it again if we had to.
I absolutely have pride and belief in our brave servicemen and women that they would indeed do it all over again. Many of them are doing so today in other theatres, a fact of which you will, I am sure, be only too aware. Your losses, and those of your colleagues, are acknowledged by the vast proportion of the population, with immense gratitude and humility. There is a debt there which can never be repaid. At least 6 members of my family lost their lives in the fields of France and Belgium during WW1, doing exactly what you did in the Falklands conflict, and what the current Armed Forces are doing today. Several of them don't have the comfort of a known grave. Many of them probably didn't even get the King's shilling and probably had no idea of the risks, since they were conscripted, but deep down they are made of exactly the same stuff which epitomises our UK Forces. It is in the nation's DNA.

Regards and thanks.
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