Tristars grounded again?
Alex you are right about BA getting its sums wrong, I was the POC in MOD for the initial Tristar operations and worked closely with BA on crewing, catering etc when we were hiring BA crews. Interestingly the BA Tristar 500s had been upgraded by Lockheed with active flying controls and other mods as they would not achieve the stated payload/range which was based on the London Vancouver sector. They were therefore probably the longest range Tristars ever built and we put them into use on sectors such as BZZ-Nairobi and BZZ-Calgary as well as the ASI and then FI run where they were capable of moving 300 pax. The savings achieved were significant as we could replace 2 VC10s operating over 2 days with a single Tristar taking one day moving more pax. As a result I started the campaign to retain at least one unmodified Tristar for pax as a cost savings measure which was ultimately successful. I believe that BA also rued the decision to get rid of these aircraft as within a few months of selling them to the RAF they were chartering less capable Air Lanka Tristars to operate some of their South American routes.
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The TriStars were originally bought to fulfil a requirement to tank a C130 down to Stanley, for it to fail to get in, and tank it back. That requirement very quickly disappeared when MPA was built and the political climate improved but no-one wanted to admit it in case the purchase was binned. That is why the freight bay was filled up with nearly useless fuel tanks by Marshalls. Most of 216 at the time would have preferred the -500s to stay in their full civvy fit with 300 odd passenger seats and a usable freight bay.
This sort of incompetence was not confined to the military, though. The rumour in BA in the early 80's was that the TriStar was judged too expensive to operate by the accountants. They had looked at the fuel flow per engine compared to the B747, amongst other things, to work out the costs per seat mile. Allegedly, once the sale to the RAF had been agreed, someone pointed out that multiplying the fuel flow by 4 was always going to make the TriStar compare badly to the Boeing.
This sort of incompetence was not confined to the military, though. The rumour in BA in the early 80's was that the TriStar was judged too expensive to operate by the accountants. They had looked at the fuel flow per engine compared to the B747, amongst other things, to work out the costs per seat mile. Allegedly, once the sale to the RAF had been agreed, someone pointed out that multiplying the fuel flow by 4 was always going to make the TriStar compare badly to the Boeing.
Cunning Artificer
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No airline in the world can say no delays,
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411A,
Please explain how you will lift from Kabul in a Tristar with enough fuel to make the UK with any meaningful load whilst still operating to Perf A?
(been there, done it
)
Please explain how you will lift from Kabul in a Tristar with enough fuel to make the UK with any meaningful load whilst still operating to Perf A?
(been there, done it
)
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Please explain how you will lift from Kabul in a Tristar with enough fuel to make the UK with any meaningful load whilst still operating to Perf A?
Done all the time with all of the UN flights, ex-ROB.
It really is an easy exercise, perhaps the RAF...don't know how?
NB. This really rather basic question leads me to believe that some folks...haven't a clue.
No surprise...
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Black Sheep,
So how do you explain this comment. Sick of this crap being used to belittle the RAF AT system.
With our ops, no delays, guarenteed. Double crews (always) solved the duty time 'delay' difficulities.
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of course, but we're operating to a 98% despatch reliablity with aircraft running an average utilisation of 16 hours per day (includes all maintenance down time). That's pretty typical for most commercial airlines. (And no, not new aircraft. We're talking about aircraft with 80,000+ hours and 25,000+ cycles)
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Within a UK CAA CAP371 regulated crew duty day 411?
Augmented (preferred) or double crew sent to the Afghan end to cater for possible loading/cargo/fuel delays, which by the way, are the charter customer responsibilities.
Sick of this crap being used to belittle the RAF AT system.
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The sad thing is that the RAF TriStars have less than half the hours and cycles you quoted.
I'm not belittling the RAF AT operation - I was part of it myself once. I'm questioning the choice of equipment provided for the task. Sideshow Bob has hinted that the Tristar can't operate to maximum load out of Kabul which may be a clue as to why the Tristars were prematurely retired from civilian service.
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411A
Please continue with your suggestions and comments-they bring a smile to my face and are a joy to us all.
Clearly, Blacksheep you have never operated a 'heavy' out Kabul in the warm months. You may want to dust off your ATPL Perf note and do the maths.
PS
216 Sqn up and running; business as usual.
Please continue with your suggestions and comments-they bring a smile to my face and are a joy to us all.
Clearly, Blacksheep you have never operated a 'heavy' out Kabul in the warm months. You may want to dust off your ATPL Perf note and do the maths.
PS
216 Sqn up and running; business as usual.
Last edited by tridriver; 7th Jan 2011 at 07:13. Reason: Kabul addition
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When was the last time an RAF Tristar flew into Kabul anyway? Not being a pilot, I would have thought that the lower altitude at Kandahar would mean more of a performance margin allowing greater loads to be carried.
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Blacksheep
you question the choice of equipment! you obviously have no clue how aircraft work
Runway length! Airfield elevation! Pressure altitude! OAT! obstacles! it affects every type of aircraft!
411A
Damn you must pay yr crews pennies the number of them you can commit to one schedule and still operate at a profit, slip crews double or augmented crews, gobsmacked you still only have 3 airplanes if yr ops are so good
you question the choice of equipment! you obviously have no clue how aircraft work
Runway length! Airfield elevation! Pressure altitude! OAT! obstacles! it affects every type of aircraft!
411A
Damn you must pay yr crews pennies the number of them you can commit to one schedule and still operate at a profit, slip crews double or augmented crews, gobsmacked you still only have 3 airplanes if yr ops are so good
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Very simple, Sideshow Bob, it requires a tech stop for refueling.
Done all the time with all of the UN flights, ex-ROB.
It really is an easy exercise, perhaps the RAF...don't know how?
NB. This really rather basic question leads me to believe that some folks...haven't a clue.
No surprise...
Done all the time with all of the UN flights, ex-ROB.
It really is an easy exercise, perhaps the RAF...don't know how?
NB. This really rather basic question leads me to believe that some folks...haven't a clue.
No surprise...
You seam to think we are a bunch of amateurs, try working to our rules and regulations with the restrictions placed on us from above and deliver the same result day in day out for 9 years you sanctimonious tw@t.
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What do you think we do just stop off somewhere and park up for the night?
The military is very good at what they were designed for, fighting, however, it would appear that the transport of personel could be greatly enhanced by adopting proven commercial airline ops, and at an expected lower overall cost.
One wonders...is the MoD up to the task?