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Old 28th Aug 2010, 07:25   #1 (permalink)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Russian subs stalk Trident

Russian subs stalk Trident in echo of Cold War

Russian submarines are hunting down British Vanguard boats in a return to Cold War tactics not seen for 25 years, Navy chiefs have warned.

A specially upgraded Russian Akula class submarine has been caught trying to record the acoustic signature made by the Vanguard submarines that carry Trident nuclear missiles, according to senior Navy officers. British submariners have also reported that they are experiencing the highest number of "contacts" with Russian submarines since 1987.

If the Russians are able to obtain a recording of the unique noise of the boat's propellers it would have serious implications for Britain's nuclear deterrent. Using its sophisticated sonar, the Akula would be able to track Vanguards and potentially sink them before they could launch their Trident D4 missiles.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt that, within the past six months, a Russian Akula entered the North Atlantic and attempted to track a Vanguard. The incident has remained secret until now. It is understood that the Russians stood off Faslane, where the British nuclear force is based, and waited for a Trident-carrying boat to come out for its three-month patrol to provide the Continuous At Sea Deterrent.

While patrolling in the North Atlantic, there are a limited number of places the Vanguard is permitted to go and it is thought that the Akula attempted to track it on several occasions. Navy commanders are understood to have ordered a Trafalgar-class hunter-killer submarine to protect the Vanguard. A recording of the Akula was made by the Trafalgar submarine's sonar operators and has been played to The Daily Telegraph.

"The Russians have been playing games with us, the Americans and French in the North Atlantic," a senior Navy commander said. "We have put a lot of resources into protecting Trident because we cannot afford by any stretch to let the Russians learn the acoustic profile of one of our bombers as that would compromise the deterrent."
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 07:38   #2 (permalink)
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Russian subs stalk Trident
Well without the Mighty Hunter they are unhindered in their quest.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 07:40   #3 (permalink)
 
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A Timely Warning

The publication of this story has nothing to do with the SDSR, does it? Stand by for waves of Russian aircraft trying to enter UK airspace only to be turned away by Typhoon fighters.

Or am I being too cynical?

CD
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 07:48   #4 (permalink)
 
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It is understood that the Russians stood off Faslane,
has the journalist any idea where Faslane is? I cant see the Russians sitting in the Clyde for very long without anyone noticing, the North Channel, maybe !
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 07:55   #5 (permalink)
 
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Cynical - Probably justified.

However perhaps a timely reminder that if you are going to decimate UK Defence Plc then perhaps the chaps armed with the pens of destruction need to sit in their ivory towers with some distance away from being Afghan-centric and consider:

Defence of the Realm.
Obligations to UK worldwide responsibility. (Commonwealth?)
Commitments to UK Defence pacts. (NATO) (Euro?) (UN)

...and ensure above all else that Defence of the Realm is maintained with a satisfactory autonomous military capability. For if defence of the UK mainland is dependent upon any of our 'allies' we really have hit rock bottom, and are vulnerable:
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 07:58   #6 (permalink)
 
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Perhaps those releasing this story are just trying to remind those busy sharpening the knives pre-SDR that defence is not just about Afghanistan. Defence of the UK, which is the primary role/ responsibility of the MOD/ Government, is what Trident/ QRA are about. Afghanistan, tanks, bombers, aircraft carriers etc are about offence, imposing our will on other countries, enabling the government to strut their stuff on the world stage/ UN Security Council etc, and as such should be regarded as a secondary role. That is why the SDR should be led by a Foreign Policy review and what role the UK should take in the world with regard to our current financial position, and not just be based on a targeted saving.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 10:00   #7 (permalink)
 
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That is why the SDR should be led by a Foreign Policy review and what role the UK should take in the world with regard to our current financial position, and not just be based on a targeted saving.

Ken, excellent
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 10:03   #8 (permalink)
 
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KS - but that would be the logical and sensible way to go - so, whichever party in power, most unlikely. However, for what it is worth I endorse your view.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 10:09   #9 (permalink)
 
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Clever Richard:The publication of this story has nothing to do with the SDSR, does it? Stand by for waves of Russian aircraft trying to enter UK airspace only to be turned away by Typhoon fighters.

Or am I being too cynical?

CD
Granted. But cynical or not, does the military having to remind us via these leaks about what is happening, make the case for proper defence any less valid? Isn't the fact we have to be reminded, more indicative of a lazy, celebrity obsessed / bandwagon jumping media and a news listless, attention-span deficit public, than it is, an indication that the underlying reason for the leak has merit?
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 10:19   #10 (permalink)
 
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Instead of the Nimrod maybe we can rely on the ASW expertise of our gallant European allies. Of course, the guys who were really good at it, the Dutch, like us also have zero MPA capability.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 10:25   #11 (permalink)
 
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Fin84,

Ah yes, the Dutch providing the exemplar of why you should never tempt the government with a "they want savings, but they'll never cut this, so we'll show them how clever we are" approach.

Oops.

How are the Germans doing with the ex-Cloggie P-3s?

S41
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 10:31   #12 (permalink)
 
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How are the Germans doing with the ex-Cloggie P-3s?
Unfortunately I've been out of the loop too long to know the answer.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 10:53   #13 (permalink)
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It is understood that the Russians stood off Faslane, has the journalist any idea where Faslane is? I cant see the Russians sitting in the Clyde for very long without anyone noticing, the North Channel, maybe !
You'd be surprised where subs have got to in the last thirty years, both ours and thus possibly theirs. I can think of a few submarine COs with OBEs earned this way.

Why do you think we had an SK ASW squadron at Prestwick? They were there to screen the Faslane boats out into the N Atlantic.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 11:57   #14 (permalink)
 
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Why do you think we had an SK ASW squadron at Prestwick? They were there to screen the Faslane boats out into the N Atlantic.
Ah...now ISTR we got rid of that a SDR or 2 ago because the merlin was considered faster & more capable in ASW than the SK & therefore we could do with less bases/airframes. That decision, from those who clearly understood ASW tactics better than the ASW specialists, that the RN would deploy a merlin as & when necessary to provide the screen, was implemented before the merlin had been fully proved or cost comparison undertaken.

Now we see the RN merlin fleet stretched, deployed to provide other capabilites in other parts of the world & very little in the way of real ASW. In fact interested to know whether the merlin crews even consider or train for ASW as a primary role any more??

With SARH proffing faster more capable, but fewer in number, platforms, now under review to establish if it could be done even cheaper, one wonders how many more times the wheel must turn before those that make decisions actually listen to those providing the capability currently and who know what they're talking about.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 12:02   #15 (permalink)
 
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If the boats are still in Faslane, why are the ASW Sea Kings no longer there?

Edited to add: I was posting as the the answer to my question was being posted. Bugger!
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 12:45   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
The Daily Telegraph has learnt that, within the past six months, a Russian Akula entered the North Atlantic and attempted to track a Vanguard.
Nimrod MR2 out of service 31Mar10 - 5 months

You couldn't make it up unless your name was Clancy!

Awesome story, Jack - perfectly timed to land on the National Security Council table in Sept! Nice one

PS
Quote:
A recording of the Akula was made by the Trafalgar submarine's sonar operators and has been played to The Daily Telegraph.
Oh really?
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 13:36   #17 (permalink)
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Rules of Government Press Releases:

1. Establish who released it.
2. Determine what they stand to gain by releasing it.
3. Now understand what the Press Release was really about.
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 14:14   #18 (permalink)
 
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You'd be surprised where subs have got to in the last thirty years, both ours and thus possibly theirs.
I know exactly how close theirs got back in the 80s but if I told you I'd have to kill you! I well remember one panic when it got so busy that we finished up with the whole of 42 detached to ISK to give assistance. The scruff bar has never made so much money. At the end of det party Henry the Hoover burst his bag after 11 pints of heavy!
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 14:35   #19 (permalink)
 
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I was on that one too Fincastle!
Pigs bar rarely closed I seem to remember :o)
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Old 28th Aug 2010, 14:53   #20 (permalink)
 
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I know exactly how close theirs got back in the 80s but if I told you I'd have to kill you!
OK, I'll have a guess.........Findhorn Bay?
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