Russian subs stalk Trident
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Your quite right they could cut the kit at waddo although I think the E3 has a Nato committment and would therefore probably dodge the bullet, they won't bin the sentinel as it is serviceable, in service and paid for.
I am not pushing anything but am being quite open in my thinking and just trying to second guess what may happen, not what I want to happen.
It's no secret in the ISTAR community that the powers that be would love a single base, Waddington is central, close to the linguist schools, Wsop training at Cranwell and has no geese at the end of the runway. Perhaps crucially the local government is winnable by the tories in any election whereas Moray is not!
The mushrooms I was refering to are the guys and girls based at Kinloss who like mushrooms are being kept in the dark and fed on **** about the MRA 4.
I am not pushing anything but am being quite open in my thinking and just trying to second guess what may happen, not what I want to happen.
It's no secret in the ISTAR community that the powers that be would love a single base, Waddington is central, close to the linguist schools, Wsop training at Cranwell and has no geese at the end of the runway. Perhaps crucially the local government is winnable by the tories in any election whereas Moray is not!
The mushrooms I was refering to are the guys and girls based at Kinloss who like mushrooms are being kept in the dark and fed on **** about the MRA 4.
are being kept in the dark and fed on **** about the MRA 4.
Who else is in the dark? I would suggest just about everyone in the RAF below the rank of 3*!
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Apologies - took the mushroom quote out of context but I can see your standpoint on this. This I think is a station issue - either that or the execs have excellent poker faces and knowing many of them as I do, I think they would tell us if they had anything to tell.
The argument about having your ISTAR hub close to the training schools is pretty irrelevant to be honest. If this was such a consideration why do we have Valley? OK its out of the way and the airspace is favorable but its a pain to get to, so I dont really think that having centralised training and operational bases will factor into it. We managed for years without everything in a 20 mile radius and in my opinion it makes no sense to go down that route now. The skies above lincolnshire are busy enough already - we really should not be looking to add to it!
As for Sentinel, was it not Liam Fox who said they would look at all platforms and decide if the had a future. Sentinel is niche in its role and still finding its feet in many respects so I don't think it will be ringfenced. The money it cost to get into service has come and gone, what will be important is how much can be saved should they decide its for the chop!
In that respect, I don't think anything is safe across the Armed Forces this Autumn
The argument about having your ISTAR hub close to the training schools is pretty irrelevant to be honest. If this was such a consideration why do we have Valley? OK its out of the way and the airspace is favorable but its a pain to get to, so I dont really think that having centralised training and operational bases will factor into it. We managed for years without everything in a 20 mile radius and in my opinion it makes no sense to go down that route now. The skies above lincolnshire are busy enough already - we really should not be looking to add to it!
As for Sentinel, was it not Liam Fox who said they would look at all platforms and decide if the had a future. Sentinel is niche in its role and still finding its feet in many respects so I don't think it will be ringfenced. The money it cost to get into service has come and gone, what will be important is how much can be saved should they decide its for the chop!
In that respect, I don't think anything is safe across the Armed Forces this Autumn
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QTRZulu:
Niche in its role? I take it from that comment that you understand exactly what it does. As to finding its feet, the MOD website recently announced that ASTOR has passed 2500 hours of support provided to Op Herrick - sounds like an established capability to me. For what it's worth though, I'm sure it's as much in the mix as anything else when it comes to SDSR.
Sentinel is niche in its role and still finding its feet in many respects so I don't think it will be ringfenced
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Roland your right EVERYONE is in the cross hairs, but I think the guys at Kinloss have been in the dark for long time over the very troubled project that is the MRA 4, the SDSR might just pull the coverted rug from under them after they have waited and agonised already for so long.
All the while the progress or lack of it with the project is just drip fed along with rumor and counter rumor.
Hence my mushroom analogy.
All the while the progress or lack of it with the project is just drip fed along with rumor and counter rumor.
Hence my mushroom analogy.
sargs,
I know no more of detailed operations of the Sentinel than you can read in open forums, e.g
PICTURES: RAF marks Sentinel, Shadow surveillance aircraft milestones
I know that the Sentinel is out in the 'Stan, but how effective is it out there? Is it there partly because we have it, and partly to justify its existence. It was designed to locate and track the movement of armoured columns of a conventional army, is it now being used to track small illicit arms shipments in Afghanistan....? How well can it do that task, and how important is it?
Is the american E-8 J-STARs out there? If not, then why not? Is Sentinel better, as a more modern platform, or is a JSTARS type capability not actually vital in theatre?
I guess (know?) the questions I am asking are of too classified a nature to generate a response. My only point is, just because its in Afghanistan doing a job, I don't consider it to be safer than most other platforms.
Edited to add, looks like JSTARS may be going soon, if this is to be believed (it is wiki...)
E-8 Joint STARS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I know no more of detailed operations of the Sentinel than you can read in open forums, e.g
PICTURES: RAF marks Sentinel, Shadow surveillance aircraft milestones
I know that the Sentinel is out in the 'Stan, but how effective is it out there? Is it there partly because we have it, and partly to justify its existence. It was designed to locate and track the movement of armoured columns of a conventional army, is it now being used to track small illicit arms shipments in Afghanistan....? How well can it do that task, and how important is it?
Is the american E-8 J-STARs out there? If not, then why not? Is Sentinel better, as a more modern platform, or is a JSTARS type capability not actually vital in theatre?
I guess (know?) the questions I am asking are of too classified a nature to generate a response. My only point is, just because its in Afghanistan doing a job, I don't consider it to be safer than most other platforms.
Edited to add, looks like JSTARS may be going soon, if this is to be believed (it is wiki...)
E-8 Joint STARS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by Biggus; 3rd Sep 2010 at 18:59.
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Biggus
I was looking for a way to express what you have so clearly done without letting any cats out of the bag. Thanks
Bottom line is that we are all cogs in a very big wheel and we all have a part to play, but there are no sacred cows (other than Trident!) in the up coming SDSR, so as far as I'm concerned all bets are off and every platform is fair game.
You don't have to like it or agree with it, but its the reality that we are now left with.
I was looking for a way to express what you have so clearly done without letting any cats out of the bag. Thanks
Bottom line is that we are all cogs in a very big wheel and we all have a part to play, but there are no sacred cows (other than Trident!) in the up coming SDSR, so as far as I'm concerned all bets are off and every platform is fair game.
You don't have to like it or agree with it, but its the reality that we are now left with.
Jayand,
Returning to your earlier comment:
I am not the one pushing glossy magazine fantasy propaganda.
If your referring to the RAF article on the MRA4 - exactly what part of it do you consider to be fantasy and what part propaganda? Knowing the aircraft as I do, it looks like a well balanced piece of work - and no, I had no part in writing it whatsoever...
Returning to your earlier comment:
I am not the one pushing glossy magazine fantasy propaganda.
If your referring to the RAF article on the MRA4 - exactly what part of it do you consider to be fantasy and what part propaganda? Knowing the aircraft as I do, it looks like a well balanced piece of work - and no, I had no part in writing it whatsoever...
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I havn't even read said article as I won't learn anything new to be honest, my obvious cynicism comes from many years of experience.
Seldom do the glossy brochures actually match the real hardware.
Seldom do the glossy brochures actually match the real hardware.
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Ok just read it and perhaps I will admit that it isn't too glossy or bigging up the platform too much.
One major issue though
" The Nimrod MRA4 enters service with the RAF in 2010"
Oh dear there goes a two ship past my window oink oink.
One major issue though
" The Nimrod MRA4 enters service with the RAF in 2010"
Oh dear there goes a two ship past my window oink oink.
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I may be a little out on dates but I think 'A' was formally accepted in March/April this year by the MoD.
That does mean that it officially entered service in 2010. However my definition of 'in service' is obviously way off what the MoD definition is.
That does mean that it officially entered service in 2010. However my definition of 'in service' is obviously way off what the MoD definition is.
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Operational MRA4
"To have any real meaning, "entered service" should mean operationally capable, in the hands of a front-line, fully qualified crew; nothing less."
Maybe but that is just not the ideal way things are.
And yet in the case of HMS Astute which was commissioned last month, according to the 1st SL, “Today is an important milestone along the road to full operational capability which will follow after a further series of demanding seagoing trials testing the full range of the submarine’s capabilities”.
What is the difference?
The only one that springs to mind is that the PR machine for the Dark Blue is much much better than the one employed by the Light Blue.
Maybe but that is just not the ideal way things are.
And yet in the case of HMS Astute which was commissioned last month, according to the 1st SL, “Today is an important milestone along the road to full operational capability which will follow after a further series of demanding seagoing trials testing the full range of the submarine’s capabilities”.
What is the difference?
The only one that springs to mind is that the PR machine for the Dark Blue is much much better than the one employed by the Light Blue.
Rant mode on:
The debate about 'entered service' dates is probably more suited to the corridors of the MOD and Westminster, where such weasel words and sentiments usually abound.
The trainers, crews and maintenance personnel at Kinloss have no airframes yet.
That is an absolute fact.
The fact that an airframe was handed over for a day, then given back to the company and has still, to the best of my knowledge, not been released to service does not mean it is in service.
Even if MOD/Government spin suggests otherwise.
Rant Mode off:
Good luck to the gals and guys at Kinloss; I hope the base, aircraft and personnel all escape the cuts.
The debate about 'entered service' dates is probably more suited to the corridors of the MOD and Westminster, where such weasel words and sentiments usually abound.
The trainers, crews and maintenance personnel at Kinloss have no airframes yet.
That is an absolute fact.
The fact that an airframe was handed over for a day, then given back to the company and has still, to the best of my knowledge, not been released to service does not mean it is in service.
Even if MOD/Government spin suggests otherwise.
Rant Mode off:
Good luck to the gals and guys at Kinloss; I hope the base, aircraft and personnel all escape the cuts.
Last edited by Siggie; 5th Sep 2010 at 01:20. Reason: missing International Night
Jayand wrote
The Warton based MRA4, serial ZJ514, flew today.
FighterControl • Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - Nimrod MRA4
TJ
When was the last time and MRA 4 got airborne?
FighterControl • Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - Nimrod MRA4
TJ
