F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

[George K Lee]

We live in an F-35 world where the small opening to allow the gun to fire can upset the aircraft enough for the gun to miss and the gun installation was part of the A design from the beginning.

Aaargh, Sorry, but that fits firmly in the That's Why You Have Wind Tunnels And CFD bracket. So let me take a wild guess and suggest that the problem was obvious from day one, or at least from the point where the big 5-barrel 25-mm was substituted for the ATK-Rheinmetall 27, but some smartar*e waved it away by a PowerPoint concluding "addressable via flight control software", and a more senior schedule-driven person (preoccupied no doubt by the jet's unexpected acquisition of 3000 pounds of ugly surplus fat) declared said PPT to be the truth.

Not that it matters too much, as a gun on a stealthy bomber is about as relevant as pikes and boarding ladders on a submarine.

[Rhino power]

Originally Posted by George K Lee

Not that it matters too much, as a gun on a stealthy bomber is about as relevant as pikes and boarding ladders on a submarine.

Which completely ignores the fact the that the F-35 won't always have to operate in 'stealthy bomber' mode, and that the gun could also be considered a cheaper option than a multi thousand $/£/¥/€ missile/PGM for soft target plinking, not to mention it being a weapon of last resort when you're all out of the previously mentioned exploding luxuries...

-RP

[IcePaq]

You Tube

[MSOCS]

RP, there's a lot of forgetting on this thread. You're right. People like George K Sweetman who have had no tangible connection with the F-35 beyond the odd invitational to FW ("target for tonight" - how awkward that was...), but years of desktop/basement supposition, somehow know everything. They distinctly forget that F-35 will spend only a proportion of its time on internal stores only.

At least Lara hasn't got the massive chip on shoulder of her forebear. She's very good indeed.

[TBM-Legend]

Remember the mighty F-105 had both probe and boom refuelling receptors...why not F-35?

[ORAC]

Must be an Australian airframe........

[ORAC]

Meanwhile on the slightly more boring, but expensive, money front....

JPO, Lockheed Play Fast and Loose with F-35 Costs

F-35 Unreliability Risks Strain on Pentagon Budget, Tester Says (excerpt)

[FODPlod]

Originally Posted by ORAC

Meanwhile on the slightly more boring, but expensive, money front....

JPO, Lockheed Play Fast and Loose with F-35 Costs

F-35 Unreliability Risks Strain on Pentagon Budget, Tester Says (excerpt)

Genuine question intriguing me. Has any other aircraft, especially FJ in development, totalled anything like these flying hours with none (as far as I've heard) falling from the skies?

Originally Posted by CNBC 9 June 2017

...More than 220 operational F-35s have been built and delivered worldwide, and they have collectively flown more than 95,000 flight hours.

For example, how does this compare with the F-16, F/A-18 and F/A-18 E/F? I've found nothing correlating total flying hours with loss rates.

[SpazSinbad]

You'll have to go read about the F-35A fire damage total at Eglin AFB during takeoff:

Details divulged of F-35A catastrophic engine fire

Accident Report: http://www.standard.net/attachment/2...report-pdf.pdf (2.1Mb)

[FODPlod]

Originally Posted by SpazSinbad

You'll have to go read about the F-35A fire damage total at Eglin AFB during takeoff:

Details divulged of F-35A catastrophic engine fire

Accident Report:http://www.standard.net/attachment/2...report-pdf.pdf (2.1Mb)

Thank you but, as I understand it, the A/C was still on the ground and the pilot walked (ran?) away so not exactly a 'flying' accident. Catastrophic but remedied fairly quickly and not really what I was looking for, i.e. "falling from the skies".

[SpazSinbad]

So close and yet so far away (according to some) but hey Mishappily Pilot walked away - always a good thing:

"..At the correct rotation speed, the MP [mishap pilot] began to rotate, or lift the nose wheel off the ground in anticipation of takeoff. During rotation, the MA engine stalled and displayed an ENG STALL (engine stall) Integrated Caution, Advisory, Warning (ICAW) at 09:10:06L. The MP heard an audible bang and felt the aircraft decelerate about the same time the MP received the ENG STALL ICAW and the MP subsequently applied the ABORT procedure at 09:10:07L. The MP received other warnings and cautions including FIRE FIRE..."

[sandiego89]

Originally Posted by FODPlod

.....not really what I was looking for, i.e. "falling from the skies".

FODplod, no I can not think of a FJ program that had not had such an event (ie: crater) with this many hours. Yes we know about the ground fires. And it is operating in squadron use, at sea, in major exercises, at airshows and abroad- it does not seem to be babied any longer. Impressive. I am sure there are several who will roll out the "unsafe" and "told you so" headlines when it does happen.


The Super Hornet took awhile for the first loss (midair I believe). F-14 perhaps the shortest (flight #2)

[melmothtw]

Originally Posted by sandiego89

FODplod, no I can not think of a FJ program that had not had such an event (ie: crater) with this many hours.

Has any other FJ had so many restrictions placed on it with this many hours? Genuine question. Might help explain the lack of a 'crater'.

[George K Lee]

So does anyone want to take a bet on when an F-35 will score a guns kill in A2A, or when an F-35A will make a guns pass at a ground target in combat?

Or even on how much live gunnery training will be included in the standard syllabus?

[Just This Once...]

I guess it will use its gun when it deploys to a theatre that requires it. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya are all recent and current conflicts where guns have frequently been used in anger from all the deployed fast jet types.

Guns always fall out of fashion between conflicts but suddenly we remember how useful they are when we do deploy for real.

[SpazSinbad]

Another LM F-35 Chief Test Pilot explanation of the PAS 2017 maneuvers:

You Tube

[George K Lee]

Illuminating interview with Bogdan:

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineA...urbulence.aspx

[glad rag]

Genuine question intriguing me. Has any other aircraft, especially FJ in development, totalled anything like these flying hours with none (as far as I've heard) falling from the skies?

Considering 48% are unavailable at any given time it
does skew the supposed metrics..

[ORAC]

USMC Expeditionary Advance Base Operations. Lots of interesting concepts, but scroll down to the STOVL FARP Barge.

https://marinecorpsconceptsandprogra...20(Public).pdf

[George K Lee]

Thanks, ORAC...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WAwuSK36Gw