F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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Originally Posted by Obba
So what has Trump done to get lot 10 down in millions of $ in price?
“In terms of the projected prices, they were all to do with the ramp-up in rates and were well-advertised,” [BAE Systems Plc Chief Executive Officer Ian] King said on the conference call. “But if somebody wants to take credit for that finalization, negotiation, then they can take credit for that negotiation if they wish.”
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Quoth FODPlod...
Sounds like good value for money if four F-35s can do the work of 12 or 13 aircraft of the previous generation:
The good general's "previous generation" comprises clapped-out Classic Hornets and Harriers with warmed-over 1970s radar, superheterodyne/analog RWR and either no ECM or a bit of wheezy 1980s stuff. So the statement is not as exciting as enthusiasts might like.
Sounds like good value for money if four F-35s can do the work of 12 or 13 aircraft of the previous generation:
The good general's "previous generation" comprises clapped-out Classic Hornets and Harriers with warmed-over 1970s radar, superheterodyne/analog RWR and either no ECM or a bit of wheezy 1980s stuff. So the statement is not as exciting as enthusiasts might like.
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...four F-35s can do the work of 12 or 13 aircraft of the previous generation
-RP
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...be an impressive jet and a considerable advance over current platforms but...
Despite your grudging acknowledgement above, you still seem bound and determined to condemn it, despite the endorsement of almost every pilot that flies it, the countless teams from various country’s who have evaluated and recommended it, and the successes it has had in the recent Red Flag exercises it has been engaged in.
Your area of expertise in evaluating it is...?
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None whatsoever, other than what info is available via open source, nor do I claim any particular expertise, what's your's?. Instead of cherry picking one sentence out of context which suits your stance, why not try answering the actual question I posed in the comment you quoted from?
-RP
IF the F-35 provides the edge over current IADS that it is supposed to do, that's undoubtedly a great operational asset but, given how late into service it is, will it still provide that edge over updated and in development systems? Will the updating of the onboard sensors/avionics be enough to counter the ever evolving IADS threat, or will the basic airframe and LO technologies built into it be the ultimate limiting factor?
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“...Air Combat Command was beginning to envision a new kind of Red Flag—one still having a substantial live-fly element, but heavily supplemented with virtual elements and simulation. Though F-22s and (as of January) F-35s participate in Red Flags, the true scope of what they can do must be hidden from potential opponents closely monitoring the wargames. As a result, Red Flag will move increasingly into the virtual realm....”
1Mb 11 page PDF of entire article: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineA...Aggressors.pdf
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
12 more FA-18E/G orders. Keeps the line open pending more orders. $678M - works out at about $56M each.
https://www.govconwire.com/2017/02/b...r-hornet-jets/
https://www.govconwire.com/2017/02/b...r-hornet-jets/
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At the same time, Air Combat Command was beginning to envision a new kind of Red Flag—one still having a substantial live-fly element, but heavily supplemented with virtual elements and simulation. Though F-22s and (as of January) F-35s participate in Red Flags, the true scope of what they can do must be hidden from potential opponents closely monitoring the wargames. As a result, Red Flag will move increasingly into the virtual realm.
"Will move"... Suggests that there was little LVC to January's exercise, which means that Red was (mainly) confined to hardware on hand. Representative of most of today's threats, but not tomorrow's.
"Will move"... Suggests that there was little LVC to January's exercise, which means that Red was (mainly) confined to hardware on hand. Representative of most of today's threats, but not tomorrow's.
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None whatsoever, other than what info is available via open source, nor do I claim any particular expertise, what's your's?. Instead of cherry picking one sentence out of context which suits your stance, why not try answering the actual question I posed in the comment you quoted from?
will it still provide that edge over updated and in development systems? Will the updating of the onboard sensors/avionics be enough to counter the ever evolving IADS threat, or will the basic airframe and LO technologies built into it be the ultimate limiting factor?
‘But’... one may be sure that you will find disagreement with that.
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So no particular expertise, and no cherry picking, your ‘question' isn’t really a question, you seemingly admit the ac is way ahead of whatever else is out there then pose alternatives that don’t even exist, and possible problems.
Since no other country is producing anything of that standard, or numbers of F-35’s already in service, then it would seem that a qualitative edge over potential opponents already exists.
‘But’... one may be sure that you will find disagreement with that.
Since no other country is producing anything of that standard, or numbers of F-35’s already in service, then it would seem that a qualitative edge over potential opponents already exists.
‘But’... one may be sure that you will find disagreement with that.
My 'question' is a 'question', which you obviously can't answer, or at least provide a sound opinion!
What alternative (to what exactly?) did I 'pose' that doesn't exist, and are we to assume that there are no possible problems then?
Since no other country is producing anything of that standard, or numbers of F-35’s already in service, then it would seem that a qualitative edge over potential opponents already exists.
-RP
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Rhino power,
Though your questions (qouted below) are too general (and the general answer to the first one is "No", IMHO) they are quite wise and touch lots of issues.
IMHO, the key words in the above quote are "current IADS" and "evolving IADS".
As for "current IADS", they differ greatly. For really modern ones, F-35 can hardly do anything alone. But if we add the whole crowd of EW, C4ISR and other platforms, then the question arises about the contribution of F-35 to this orchestra (and its added value vs e.g. the -18's family).
Regarding "evolving IADS", IMHO, as usual the advantage is on the ground systems side (as they are not limited that much in size, power, network links, etc.) Therefore, taking into account very long life cycles of modern planes (as compared e.g. with 50's and 60's) "modifiability" (quick and cost effective) becomes more and more important for any aircraft.
Though your questions (qouted below) are too general (and the general answer to the first one is "No", IMHO) they are quite wise and touch lots of issues.
IF the F-35 provides the edge over current IADS that it is supposed to do, that's undoubtedly a great operational asset but, given how late into service it is, will it still provide that edge over updated and in development systems? Will the updating of the onboard sensors/avionics be enough to counter the ever evolving IADS threat, or will the basic airframe and LO technologies built into it be the ultimate limiting factor?
As for "current IADS", they differ greatly. For really modern ones, F-35 can hardly do anything alone. But if we add the whole crowd of EW, C4ISR and other platforms, then the question arises about the contribution of F-35 to this orchestra (and its added value vs e.g. the -18's family).
Regarding "evolving IADS", IMHO, as usual the advantage is on the ground systems side (as they are not limited that much in size, power, network links, etc.) Therefore, taking into account very long life cycles of modern planes (as compared e.g. with 50's and 60's) "modifiability" (quick and cost effective) becomes more and more important for any aircraft.
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The Arrival of the F-35C for the Carrier Fleet 27 Feb 2017 SLDinfo
The Arrival of the F-35C for the Carrier Fleet | SLDInfo
"...The F-35s coming to the fleet will add significantly to this process. It is about rapid combat learning in a dynamic warfighting environment. We are shaping the foundation for “learning airplanes” to engage the enemy.
LVC will enable us to train in a more robust environment than we are on our current ranges that are geographically constrained, and currently do not have the full high end threat replicated. LVC will allow us to train to the full capabilities of our platforms across a variety of security environments and do so without exposing our training process to an interested adversary.
Question: What you are talking about is shaping real time combat forensics against an active and dynamic threat?
Rear Admiral Manazir: That is a great way to put it. And this capability is crucial going forward.
We’re back into a scenario where lots of threats around the world require us to react to enemy learning. Then, when they act in accordance to our reaction, we react again and so on. The enemy morphs to do X. We have to react and we now do Y.
What is not widely realized is that the evolving air wing on the carrier and on the large deck amphibious ships, is being shaped for a dynamic learning process. The F-35s will play a key role in this evolving process, but we are already underway with this process as you mentioned with regard to Fallon.
With regard to the air war, where it’s either air-to-ground missions or air-to-air missions, we can share that information and bring in more people into the discussion with our long-range information and communication systems...."
LVC will enable us to train in a more robust environment than we are on our current ranges that are geographically constrained, and currently do not have the full high end threat replicated. LVC will allow us to train to the full capabilities of our platforms across a variety of security environments and do so without exposing our training process to an interested adversary.
Question: What you are talking about is shaping real time combat forensics against an active and dynamic threat?
Rear Admiral Manazir: That is a great way to put it. And this capability is crucial going forward.
We’re back into a scenario where lots of threats around the world require us to react to enemy learning. Then, when they act in accordance to our reaction, we react again and so on. The enemy morphs to do X. We have to react and we now do Y.
What is not widely realized is that the evolving air wing on the carrier and on the large deck amphibious ships, is being shaped for a dynamic learning process. The F-35s will play a key role in this evolving process, but we are already underway with this process as you mentioned with regard to Fallon.
With regard to the air war, where it’s either air-to-ground missions or air-to-air missions, we can share that information and bring in more people into the discussion with our long-range information and communication systems...."
Regarding "evolving IADS", IMHO, as usual the advantage is on the ground systems side (as they are not limited that much in size, power, network links, etc.) Therefore, taking into account very long life cycles of modern planes (as compared e.g. with 50's and 60's) "modifiability" (quick and cost effective) becomes more and more important for any aircraft.
[QUOTE=glad rag;9692423]or armed recce with raptor (pod) and everything else bar the kitchen sink???[/QUOTe
Glad rag.shame that the Mod are intent on retiring the RAF most trusted and most capable fast jet,this on the extremely short sighted policy of only having 2 fast jet types. I don't doubt Typhoon capabilities but it is crystal clear to anyone who understands these things that F35 will not be fully capable by2019. They will never admit it but we will only realise how effective tornado is when it is no longer available.
Glad rag.shame that the Mod are intent on retiring the RAF most trusted and most capable fast jet,this on the extremely short sighted policy of only having 2 fast jet types. I don't doubt Typhoon capabilities but it is crystal clear to anyone who understands these things that F35 will not be fully capable by2019. They will never admit it but we will only realise how effective tornado is when it is no longer available.
Can't help but think this same sentiment was expressed when Nimrod and Harrier (all variants) were binned: the sky didn't fall down then and probably won't now if Typhoon can expand its capabilities. Anyway everyone needs a good holiday every now and again.
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Ex military aviator, 40 years in aviation, interested in a new aircraft.
The drivel being a question you posed, rooted in outdated strategy, and, a network V’s a single piece of equipment, hardly apples to apples, or a sensible comparison/question. As the General said, a bit 20th Century.
You seem to regard the F-35 as a static weapons system rather than a constantly evolving one...and as an aircraft, rather that the multi-purpouse, mutl-service, multi national integrative weapon system it is.
All Integrated Air Defence Systems are constantly being improved, as is the F-35... which is not just a LO airframe with some sensors. As IADS’s are a network so too are the capabilities, tactics, and evolving sophistication of air offence of which the F-35 is but one part. The F-35 can no longer be considered as a single system in isolation which is precisely what your ‘question’ supposes, but a force multiplying constantly developing platform that is part of a of combined offensive/defensive grouping with new capabilities being discovered every day.
A Van, thank you for your considered reply, that was all I was asking for in the first place, not the drivel that I actually received...
...but, given how late into service it is, will it still provide that edge over updated and in development systems? Will the updating of the onboard sensors/avionics be enough to counter the ever evolving IADS threat, or will the basic airframe and LO technologies built into it be the ultimate limiting factor?
All Integrated Air Defence Systems are constantly being improved, as is the F-35... which is not just a LO airframe with some sensors. As IADS’s are a network so too are the capabilities, tactics, and evolving sophistication of air offence of which the F-35 is but one part. The F-35 can no longer be considered as a single system in isolation which is precisely what your ‘question’ supposes, but a force multiplying constantly developing platform that is part of a of combined offensive/defensive grouping with new capabilities being discovered every day.