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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 22nd Feb 2017, 06:16
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Actually, I believe McNamara served as an officer in the USAAF during WWII and a couple years afterward. So he had some military experience. He was appointed Secretary of Defense by President Kennedy, who had some military experience himself. Sadly, McNamara was mostly a failure as US SecDef.

Of course, there have been several US Secretaries of Defense that had no military experience.
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 11:37
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James Mattis would therefore seem a qualified Sec Def...who doesn’t mind some plain speak about certain NATO ‘allies’ not carrying their weight.
https://www.dodbuzz.com/2017/02/15/m...llies-pay-now/

Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn as White House national security adviser would similarly seem suited to the job.

Considered, Marine Gen. John Kelly for secretary of homeland security and Navy Adm. Michael Rogers for director of national intelligence (DNI).
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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 13:08
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Flynn's out, or hadn't you heard? President Trump advised him "You're Fired!" Newest appointee (NSA/NSC) appears to be McMaster, who is a good choice.

The Phantom predated MacNamara arriving as SecDef. Navy was doing carrier trials on the Phantom in 1959.

As to "not being able to hit a moving truck" ... some of you write amusing copy. Have you read the whole article?


The cluster munitions do it, (and the "we'll stop using cluster munitions" is a platitude that may well change).
FFS, you Don't Need a 500 pound bomb to blow up a truck! Maverick, Hellfire, and a variety of smaller munitions do nicely.
While I don't mind the idea of a 500 lb being able to hit a truck -- my mind's eye picture of that borders on the hilarious -- for the USAF to state that as the requirement is a symptom of standard-USAF-gold-plating ... further comments censored.

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Old 22nd Feb 2017, 19:15
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Yes the Phantom was flying and in service before McNamara came along, with the U.S. NAVY and MARINES. McNamara told the U.S. AIR FORCE they would have to adopt the F-4 as well, in the interests of commonality, and they ended up loving it.
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Old 23rd Feb 2017, 09:44
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Not_a_boffin
No different to this (1969)



or this (mid-80s)



then.
Quite a bit I'd say...

Tornado entered squadron service in 1982.....so I make that 13 years from 1969, so I seriously doubt there were any under 13's on those first Tornado squadrons!
Typhoon is longer at 1983 to 2003, but, again, I doubt there were any under 20 year old on those first Typhon squadrons?

Not saying there WILL be any on the first F-35 squadrons, but, given that 13 year time frame, became a 20 year time frame, and we're now looking at a nearly 30 year time frame period, and there could well be some under 30's on those first squadrons.....which is a staggering thought to me.
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Old 23rd Feb 2017, 14:12
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Originally Posted by Fonsini
...Air Force that they would have to use the F-4 Phantom - an aircraft they ended up loving...
'Loving it' could be overstating it slightly given the USAF Vietnam experience so soon after the F-4 came into USAF service. The F-4 gained better manoeuvrability, power and an internal gun in short order but the clamour for improved aircraft performance was only answered by the F-15 and F-16.
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Old 23rd Feb 2017, 14:27
  #10247 (permalink)  
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The F-4 gained better manoeuvrability, power and an internal gun in short order
And missiles......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-4_Falcon
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Old 24th Feb 2017, 00:14
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Old 24th Feb 2017, 03:25
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F-35A Red Flag Debut AIR International Magazine March 2017
"Norman Graf spoke with aircrew from the 388th and 419th Fighter Wings about participation of the F-35A in Exercise Red Flag for the first time.

The overall goals of Red Flag remain the same from exercise to exercise, but the individual mission sets are tailored to the specific squadrons and allied air forces participating. In terms of coalition partners, Australia, the UK and the United States are about as close as they come, so the first Flag of each year features these players and is normally at a correspondingly higher level of intensity. This year was no exception, as the US Air Force debuted the latest addition to its aerial inventory, the F-35A Lightning II.

The US Air Force declared initial operational capability (IOC) for the F-35A in August, 2016; Red Flag 17-1 was the type’s first large force exercise since IOC. Commander of the 34th Fighter Squadron, Lt Col George Watkins said: “It is exciting to integrate the newest operational fighter squadron and the F-35A with all the other experienced aircrew, including two of our partner nations. The professional aggressors [based at Nellis] are providing great training, but [they are] no match for our integrated fourth and fifth-generation air force.” While exercises in the past few years have expanded in scope and have been embedded in larger scenarios involving off-site and even virtual players, this year’s Red Flag concentrated more on the tactical issues of integration and interoperability of fourth and fifth-generation fighters. Mission scenarios included defensive counter-air (defending airspace against the Red Air force), air interdiction (AI, striking targets deep in enemy territory) and dynamic targeting (trying to find targets on the fly detecting threats and finding those on the ground and trying to hit those targets). As the most modern fighter in the US Air Force inventory, possessing capabilities to gather, fuse and share sensor data, coupled with its stealth technology and offensive weapons capabilities, the multi-role F-35A was at the centre of the action....

...Commander of the 419th Operations Group, Detachment 1, Lt Col Dave DeAngelis and one of the reserve pilots said Red Flag offers intensive training and is a tremendous learning experience. He said: “The aggressor pilots are among the best of the best and spend their days learning the tactics of enemy air forces, so it definitely puts us to the test.” Just one week into the exercise, the first ten-aircraft sortie was launched, followed in the late afternoon by an eight-ship launch.

Lt Col Watkins highlighted how four of his squadron pilots, who previously flew F-15s and F-16s at Red Flag for years, had expressed their satisfaction with the F-35A. The squadron commander quoted them as saying, ‘This is amazing. I’ve never had this much situational awareness while airborne. I know who’s who, I know who’s being threatened, and I know where I need to go next.’ Watkins said “You just don’t have all of that information at once in fourth-generation platforms. On the first day we flew defensive counter-air and we didn’t lose a single friendly aircraft. That’s unheard of. It feels like air dominance.”

Red Air
One of the more demanding tasks for the Red Air force was to make this exercise challenging for the combined Blue Air force comprising fourth and fifth-generation fighters.

Major Mark Klein, an Air Force Reserve Command pilot who flies with the 64th Aggressor Squadron said: “We focus on adversary tactics all the time, so we are subject matter experts on how enemy aircraft operate and perform. Then we replicate that here [at Red Flag].”

Civilian contractor pilots from Draken International flying A-4 Skyhawks augmented the F-16s of the Nellis-based 64th Aggressor Squadron. Additionally, F-16Cs from the 115th Fighter Wing, Wisconsin Air National Guard and F-15Cs from the 125th Fighter Wing, Florida Air National Guard, and Block 50 F-16Cs assigned to the 77th Fighter Squadron from Shaw Air Force Base, South Carolina rotated on to the Red Air team to increase the number of aggressor aircraft needed to assure a robust threat laydown. On average 20 to 24 Red Air aircraft flew each day, including regeneration (a process allowing aggressor aircraft that have been shot down to rejoin the fight), so the Blue Air force would face three or four times that number.

Lt Col Watkins said: “They have ramped up the level of the threat. They’ve stepped it up with the number of Red Air aircraft fighting against us. The amount of jamming, the skill level of the adversaries and the surface-to-air missile threat have signicantly increased from when I was here last flying the F-16. There’s always a change in the threat. We’re continuing to build new systems and get more capable [but] the adversary threats are also becoming more capable, so there’s always a stair step approach. But there’s a marked difference in this Flag from the ones I’ve experienced in the past. I believe that’s because of integration of the F-22, F-35 and all the fourth-generation players. We’re able to bring that all together for this fight. It’s needed to challenge all of us as we’re fighting together.”...

...Whereas in previous Flags there might have been one or two advanced surface-to-air missile threats to counter, this year’s event featured a more complex integrated air defence system. Fourth-generation aircraft would have had to concentrate exclusively on eliminating the threats from a distance, launching many stand-off weapons, including calling in Tomahawk cruise missiles for fixed sites.

Lt Col Watkins explained how this has been ramped up. “In this Red Flag we’ve seen four advanced SAMs in one scenario, and we don’t necessarily know where they are. We can’t simulate hitting them with standoff weapons before the vul time [the time period a flight plans to be on station] even starts, so we’re using an integrated cross-domain approach to find them. We’re using information supplied by cyber and space assets, Rivet Joint and Wedgetail, and we’re fusing all information together to find the target location. Between the Block 50 F-16s and the F-35s we’re locating the threats and are able to use the F-22’s standoff capability and the stealth capability of the F-35 to get close enough to the target locations where we can drop on them. Even in a Block 50 F-16 it would be impossible to target the missile system, because it would be too dangerous to get that close.”

Lt Col DeAngelis echoed that sentiment: “We’re able to use our sensors to find the location and use our synthetic aperture radar mode to map the general area and determine where the surface-to-air missile site is. We carry two internal GBU-31(V)3 JDAMs, so we’re able to put a 2,000lb bomb on the threat. As a former F-16 pilot, we used to shoot HARMs [AGM-88 High-speed Anti-Radiation Missiles], which have much smaller warheads and are not as capable. With the F-35 we’re able to find the site and put a 2,000lb bomb on it, which is much more effective against an integrated air defence system.”...

...Brits
The Royal Air Force deployed eight Typhoons to Nellis and flew two waves of six aircraft each day. Officer Commanding No.6 Squadron, Wing Commander Billy Cooper said the majority of Typhoons tasking was air-to-air fighting. He said: “As a swing role platform, we carried bombs on some of the missions. Some of the time we’ve been using the F-35 to find some of the integrated air defence systems and on occasion the Typhoon dropped bombs on the targets located, but lots of the time we were out at the front of the package, providing air cover. Quite often the F-35 provided some of the Link 16 picture that we were able to use to generate situational awareness.”

Interest in working closely with the F-35A during Red Flag 17-1 was understandably high within the RAF contingent, as the UK is due to introduce the F-35B into service in the coming years. Once in service, the UK will have a fourth/fifth-generation mix of Typhoon and F-35B. Experience gained from exercises such as Red Flag 17-1 is critical to gain experience and develop tactics and operating procedures for effective future operations...."
AIR International Magazine March 2017 Vol.92 No.3
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Old 25th Feb 2017, 03:16
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meanwhile.....

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Old 25th Feb 2017, 09:15
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Originally Posted by glad rag
meanwhile.....
...moments before his sleep was made permanent by a Brimstone or burst of 25mm from the F-35's internal GAU-22 or gun pod. :-)

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Old 25th Feb 2017, 09:33
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Originally Posted by FODPlod
...moments before his sleep was made permanent by a Brimstone or burst of 25mm from the F-35(B)'s gun pod
Yeah, as long as Abdullah and his mates keep driving aimlessly around the dessert for a few more years until the gun pod works and Brimstone finally gets integrated!

-RP
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Old 25th Feb 2017, 10:50
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Originally Posted by Rhino power
Yeah, as long as Abdullah and his mates keep driving aimlessly around the dessert for a few more years until the gun pod works and Brimstone finally gets integrated!

-RP
Despite the remarkable achievements of the F-35 and the glowing tributes by its pilots in the meantime, you seem to have settled on your unshakeable opinion at least four years ago. Unsurprisingly, many of us don't share it.

Never mind. Perhaps it will be cancelled?

Originally Posted by Rhino power 22 Apr 2013
Looks like the Joint ****e Fighter has avoided having its head put on the financial chopping block, for now... Obama's budget plan appears to spare F-35 and V-22 programs | Business | Dallas Business...

-RP
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Old 25th Feb 2017, 10:56
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As long as Abdullah and his mates continue driving aimlessly around the desert for a few more years he’s welcome to stay there.

In the meantime F-35 integration with combined systems within all branches of the forces, including those of allies, will continue in preparation for potential conflict with other superpowers whose abilities are somewhat greater than Abdullah and his mates.
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Old 25th Feb 2017, 13:27
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Indeed. We are all getting used to the idea that North Korea does appear to have a functioning long range 'weapon of mass destruction'. After years of wondering about their nuclear ambitions to go with their missile program, they seem to have quietly mastered VX production. Arguably the hardest chemical weapon agent to manufacture but the easiest to weaponise once you have it.

Would we want to take on NK now, presuming that their capability is embryonic and accepting the likely outcome for Seoul? Or do we sit back and hope that they really would not wish to lay waste to whatever irritates their leader that particular week?

Perhaps the ability to get in and out of an IADS may be something rather relevant?
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Old 25th Feb 2017, 13:59
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Originally Posted by Just This Once...
Perhaps the ability to get in and out of an IADS may be something rather relevant?
I'd suggest it's been relevant for as long as radar has been operationally effective, the serious effort to defeat radar as part of an air defence network started as far back as WWII and the SEAD mission evolved from there.
IF the F-35 provides the edge over current IADS that it is supposed to do, that's undoubtedly a great operational asset but, given how late into service it is, will it still provide that edge over updated and in development systems? Will the updating of the onboard sensors/avionics be enough to counter the ever evolving IADS threat, or will the basic airframe and LO technologies built into it be the ultimate limiting factor?
There is little doubt that the F-35 will eventually, once FOC is achieved, be an impressive jet and a considerable advance over current platforms but...

-RP

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Old 26th Feb 2017, 02:33
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Somebody's been drinking too much.
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Old 26th Feb 2017, 08:08
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I don'tthink the Chinese have much love for NK - but even less for a unified Korea. They saw what happened in E Germany.

I'd bet theyd be happy with the removal of the family Kim and a more ........ conventional .. dictatorship of the Proletariat tho'......
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 02:39
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So what has Trump done to get lot 10 down in millions of $ in price?
Wasnt it $700M ?
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 11:44
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Sounds like good value for money if four F-35s can do the work of 12 or 13 aircraft of the previous generation:
Originally Posted by Flight Global 28 Feb 2017

The United States Marine Corps says that its three squadrons of Lockheed Martin F-35B fighters are performing well in exercises.

“We’ve got a real winner on our hands,” says USMC Lt. Gen. John Davis in a media briefing. He states that exercises have shown the short-takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) variant of the F-35 to be a potent “killing machine.”

The Marines have three squadrons equipped with the aircraft. VMFA-121 and VMFA-211 have achieved initial operating capability. VMFAT-501 is a training squadron.

VMFA-121 has deployed ten jets to Japan. Six more F-35Bs will deploy to Japan in mid-2017, bringing the squadron to full strength. Later, some of these aircraft will be deployed on an amphibious warship. Davis says that exercises show a very strong success ratio for the type.

“In one scenario where I would normally send in twelve to thirteen fighters and maybe lose half, I can instead use four F-35s. The can get in, crush the target, and get out.”

In another exercise, a force of four F-35s and four older fighters were deployed against a force of 20 “bad guys.”

“Let’s just say that the eight fighters had a good day, and the twenty had a very bad day.”

The Marines aircraft are using the type’s 3I software, which offers an interim capability until the upgrade to 3F...
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