F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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Just saved myself a whole load of bandwidth.
"oh my"
"oh my"
But which part of Berke's presentation do you disagree with?
Last edited by KenV; 31st Jul 2015 at 17:42.
A presser has flooded in from the USMC
There's also a fillum reminding us of how easy the road has been so far. https://vimeo.com/lmaeronautics/revi...538/9feb00145d
airsound
U.S. MARINE CORPS DECLARES THE F-35B OPERATIONAL
HEADQUARTERS U.S. MARINE CORPS (July 31, 2015) -- The U.S. Marine Corps' F-35B Lightning II aircraft reached initial operational capability today with a squadron of 10 F-35Bs ready for world-wide deployment.
Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121 (VMFA-121), based in Yuma, Arizona, is the first squadron in military history to become operational with an F-35 variant, following a five-day Operational Readiness Inspection (ORI), which concluded July 17.
“I am pleased to announce that VMFA-121 has achieved Initial Operational Capability (IOC) in the F-35B, as defined by requirements outlined in the June 2014 Joint Report to Congressional Defense Committees,” said Gen. Joseph Dunford, Commandant of the Marine Corps. “VMFA-121 has ten aircraft in the Block 2B configuration with the requisite performance envelope and weapons clearances, to include the training, sustainment capabilities, and infrastructure to deploy to an austere site or a ship. It is capable of conducting Close Air Support, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort and Armed Reconnaissance as part of a Marine Air Ground Task Force, or in support of the Joint Force.”
Dunford stated that he has his full confidence in the F-35B’s ability to support Marines in combat, predicated on years of concurrent developmental testing and operational flying.
“Prior to declaring IOC, we have conducted flight operations for seven weeks at sea aboard an L-Class carrier, participated in multiple large force exercises, and executed a recent operational evaluation which included multiple live ordnance sorties, said Dunford.” The F-35B’s ability to conduct operations from expeditionary airstrips or sea-based carriers provides our Nation with its first 5th generation strike fighter, which will transform the way we fight and win.”
As the future of Marine Corps tactical aviation, the F-35 will eventually replace three legacy platforms: the AV- 8B Harrier, the F/A-18 Hornet, and the EA-6B Prowler.
“The success of VMFA-121 is a reflection of the hard work and effort by the Marines in the squadron, those involved in the program over many years, and the support we have received from across the Department of the Navy, the Joint Program Office, our industry partners, and the Under Secretary of Defense. Achieving IOC has truly been a team effort,” concluded Dunford.
The U.S. Marine Corps has trained and qualified more than 50 Marine F-35B pilots and certified about 500 maintenance personnel to assume autonomous, organic-level maintenance support for the F-35B.
VMFA-121’s transition will be followed by Marine Attack Squadron 211 (VMA-211), an AV-8B squadron, which is scheduled to transition next to the F-35B in fiscal year 2016. In 2018, Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 122 (VMFA-122), an F-18 Hornet squadron, will conduct its transition.
HEADQUARTERS U.S. MARINE CORPS (July 31, 2015) -- The U.S. Marine Corps' F-35B Lightning II aircraft reached initial operational capability today with a squadron of 10 F-35Bs ready for world-wide deployment.
Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121 (VMFA-121), based in Yuma, Arizona, is the first squadron in military history to become operational with an F-35 variant, following a five-day Operational Readiness Inspection (ORI), which concluded July 17.
“I am pleased to announce that VMFA-121 has achieved Initial Operational Capability (IOC) in the F-35B, as defined by requirements outlined in the June 2014 Joint Report to Congressional Defense Committees,” said Gen. Joseph Dunford, Commandant of the Marine Corps. “VMFA-121 has ten aircraft in the Block 2B configuration with the requisite performance envelope and weapons clearances, to include the training, sustainment capabilities, and infrastructure to deploy to an austere site or a ship. It is capable of conducting Close Air Support, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort and Armed Reconnaissance as part of a Marine Air Ground Task Force, or in support of the Joint Force.”
Dunford stated that he has his full confidence in the F-35B’s ability to support Marines in combat, predicated on years of concurrent developmental testing and operational flying.
“Prior to declaring IOC, we have conducted flight operations for seven weeks at sea aboard an L-Class carrier, participated in multiple large force exercises, and executed a recent operational evaluation which included multiple live ordnance sorties, said Dunford.” The F-35B’s ability to conduct operations from expeditionary airstrips or sea-based carriers provides our Nation with its first 5th generation strike fighter, which will transform the way we fight and win.”
As the future of Marine Corps tactical aviation, the F-35 will eventually replace three legacy platforms: the AV- 8B Harrier, the F/A-18 Hornet, and the EA-6B Prowler.
“The success of VMFA-121 is a reflection of the hard work and effort by the Marines in the squadron, those involved in the program over many years, and the support we have received from across the Department of the Navy, the Joint Program Office, our industry partners, and the Under Secretary of Defense. Achieving IOC has truly been a team effort,” concluded Dunford.
The U.S. Marine Corps has trained and qualified more than 50 Marine F-35B pilots and certified about 500 maintenance personnel to assume autonomous, organic-level maintenance support for the F-35B.
VMFA-121’s transition will be followed by Marine Attack Squadron 211 (VMA-211), an AV-8B squadron, which is scheduled to transition next to the F-35B in fiscal year 2016. In 2018, Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 122 (VMFA-122), an F-18 Hornet squadron, will conduct its transition.
airsound
So, Ken - What is the value of information dominance in the event that you have expended all your AMRAAMs (two today, four tomorrow) but have failed in the process to kill or Winchester all your adversaries, which have superior speed, acceleration and endurance-at-speed?
This is the question that websites like the one that (I think) you got that from will never ask.
By the way, the argument as to whether the statements by Flynn, Burbage &c have been proven false is a strawman. They have not been proven true, and are so inflated that the burden is on those making the statements to prove them true; and Flynn's statements about kinematics are at odds with the infamous leaked report.
This is the question that websites like the one that (I think) you got that from will never ask.
By the way, the argument as to whether the statements by Flynn, Burbage &c have been proven false is a strawman. They have not been proven true, and are so inflated that the burden is on those making the statements to prove them true; and Flynn's statements about kinematics are at odds with the infamous leaked report.
Last edited by LowObservable; 31st Jul 2015 at 19:11.
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Originally Posted by KenV
2. None of their performance claims have been shown to be wrong, much less lies.
Which Typhoon would that be? RC?
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This is my first post so please be gentle.
Isn't that why Gen. Mike Hostage for example is talking about the need to have the F-35s hunt in packs of eight?
Do they lack the ability or are less capable to proper self defence, and not able to get out of the situation as other aircrafts are?
If so this raises a lot of other questions. Not only for the US but for all those partners and countries that do not have the financial prerequisites to buy them in large quantities.
“Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after. But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform.”
Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
Or is it just a way of trying to keep the fleet from any numerical cuts?
Isn't that why Gen. Mike Hostage for example is talking about the need to have the F-35s hunt in packs of eight?
Do they lack the ability or are less capable to proper self defence, and not able to get out of the situation as other aircrafts are?
If so this raises a lot of other questions. Not only for the US but for all those partners and countries that do not have the financial prerequisites to buy them in large quantities.
“Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after. But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform.”
Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
Or is it just a way of trying to keep the fleet from any numerical cuts?
I guess we'll need to wait for the next shooting war to find out if this plane's any good.
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p.s. Nevertheless thanks for posting the link, it was interesting.
As for this statement:
First your defending the opinion that that the F-35 really is quite a manoeuvrable aircraft, and now that you've watched a youtube video, manoeuvrability is suddenly irrelevant...?
My position has also always been that the the F-35 must be viewed and evaluated as a PACKAGE. You cannot take any one feature and say "Aaahah! Abysmal fighter." Berke just captured my sentiments and packaged them much much better than I could.
Last edited by KenV; 1st Aug 2015 at 01:45.
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So, Ken - What is the value of information dominance in the event that you have expended all your AMRAAMs (two today, four tomorrow)....
And once again I ask politely, what part of the Berke presentation do you disagree with?
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As the marines say, AEGUS/SM-6 is my wingman. Which the F-35 can launch and target, from what I have read. I think it will use all offboard assets before it used its own. But with an unsupported group, 6:1 LER 4 vs 8 ..if a f-35 is reduced to guns 1 vs 1 in a full system event ..the mission planner is going to have to buy everyone beer for a month.
Last edited by a1bill; 1st Aug 2015 at 02:32.
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Ken
I'm sure you are right - that it is designed to work in groups - however history tells us that you can't guarantee how you will have to fight in reality. “No Battle Plan Survives Contact With the Enemy”
Helmuth von Moltke.
the other point is that I doubt many (?any?) of the non -US buyers will have the IT, networking and other sensor capability to actually form a "group" - they're planning to use the F-35 as a straight replacement for 3rd & 4th Gen aircraft
I'm sure you are right - that it is designed to work in groups - however history tells us that you can't guarantee how you will have to fight in reality. “No Battle Plan Survives Contact With the Enemy”
Helmuth von Moltke.
the other point is that I doubt many (?any?) of the non -US buyers will have the IT, networking and other sensor capability to actually form a "group" - they're planning to use the F-35 as a straight replacement for 3rd & 4th Gen aircraft
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Indeed HH, it is ironic in the extreme that the latest proposed use for the F35 is for it to be used as a reconnaissance "scout" ahead of a main package ..
Roll on 2025 when the software and weapons integration finally catch up..a stealthy wild weasel....
"Even though the Green Knights squadron is technically read to deploy, its first overseas rotation to Iwakuni, Japan isn’t planned until 2017."
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...combat-415284/
Roll on 2025 when the software and weapons integration finally catch up..a stealthy wild weasel....
"Even though the Green Knights squadron is technically read to deploy, its first overseas rotation to Iwakuni, Japan isn’t planned until 2017."
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...combat-415284/
Last edited by glad rag; 3rd Aug 2015 at 13:49. Reason: and here we have it..
It enables an entirely new ecosystem in air warfare.
Which means exactly what? I hate to break it to anyone here who has not been paying attention since 1940 or so, but air combat is an inherently networked operation. In most recent campaigns, Blue dominated Red in the ability to gather and disseminate information, and also disrupted Red's network.
By the way, automated low-latency information-sharing within a flight of combat aircraft is not a 5GenTM invention. It's been with us since the early 1980s. F-22 and F-35 do it in a manner that is focused on LPI, but there's no sign that MADL is otherwise better than TIDLS on Gripen.
And as we all know, too, once we get outside the four-ship, or (future) four-ship to four-ship of F-35s, we're back to Link 16, and anyone who thinks that is an "entirely new ecosystem" probably thinks we were using tin cans and string before St Steve invented the iPhone.
A1 - The F-35 most certainly can't "launch" SM. Whether it can plug into CEC via Link 16, I don't know, and I don't think anyone in the Navy has talked about that. Some people get confused over what they can postulate as F-35 capabilities and what's actually there, and some of them list LM as a Gold Sponsor on their sites too, but I'm sure the two are unrelated.
Which means exactly what? I hate to break it to anyone here who has not been paying attention since 1940 or so, but air combat is an inherently networked operation. In most recent campaigns, Blue dominated Red in the ability to gather and disseminate information, and also disrupted Red's network.
By the way, automated low-latency information-sharing within a flight of combat aircraft is not a 5GenTM invention. It's been with us since the early 1980s. F-22 and F-35 do it in a manner that is focused on LPI, but there's no sign that MADL is otherwise better than TIDLS on Gripen.
And as we all know, too, once we get outside the four-ship, or (future) four-ship to four-ship of F-35s, we're back to Link 16, and anyone who thinks that is an "entirely new ecosystem" probably thinks we were using tin cans and string before St Steve invented the iPhone.
A1 - The F-35 most certainly can't "launch" SM. Whether it can plug into CEC via Link 16, I don't know, and I don't think anyone in the Navy has talked about that. Some people get confused over what they can postulate as F-35 capabilities and what's actually there, and some of them list LM as a Gold Sponsor on their sites too, but I'm sure the two are unrelated.
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Do you think more research and less hanging around forums bagging LM, other sites and the f-35 might help?
Perhaps I should make longer posts, to be precise. the F-35 being a remote sensor, will feed the data for the launch and subsequent flight updates. The SM-6 uses the AIM-120 seeker and should therefore be compatible with the f-35 system..
Navy, Raytheon Test Standard Missile-6 Against Supersonic Over-the-Horizon Threat - USNI News
plugging in the f-35
http://defensetech.org/2015/01/22/na...on-technology/
Perhaps I should make longer posts, to be precise. the F-35 being a remote sensor, will feed the data for the launch and subsequent flight updates. The SM-6 uses the AIM-120 seeker and should therefore be compatible with the f-35 system..
Navy, Raytheon Test Standard Missile-6 Against Supersonic Over-the-Horizon Threat - USNI News
plugging in the f-35
http://defensetech.org/2015/01/22/na...on-technology/
Last edited by a1bill; 1st Aug 2015 at 14:52.
Thanks for the clarification. I'd forgotten that the latest iteration of the CEC concept was NIFCA-CA. However, what seems to be discussed at your second link is a demonstration, so I guess we'll have to see if NIFCA-CA integration makes it on to Block 4 (that is, pre-2027).
However, if I'm planning to use something as a radar/ESM/IR picket I would prefer something with persistence, and it doesn't need a pilot.
However, if I'm planning to use something as a radar/ESM/IR picket I would prefer something with persistence, and it doesn't need a pilot.
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A new long range LPI DL (probably some flavor of ATDL) needs to be developed for the F-35 to enable the passing of initial and mid-course targeting data back to the E-2D that manages the engagement. SM-6 terminal guidance is handled onboard by its active seeker derived from the AIM-120 program. The remote sensing capability is not limited to the F-35: EA-18s (will) have this capability via Link-16 or TTNT. The novel aspect of using (a section or division) of F-35 as a remote sensor is the ability to deploy an array of sensors (array in the sense of widely spaced aircraft) far forward of the attacking force.
Former RAAF CAF wrote ...
F22 rather than F35 but, enough similarity to be relevant?
"I had the opportunity to fly in an opposition Red Air F‐15D fitted with a sophisticated EW jamming capability. I was looking forward to being on the mission having been on the receiving end of “Red Air” over the years. However, instead of witnessing the normal attrition of a strike package I witnessed a demonstration of the superiority of the fifth generation aircraft.
What I didn’t account for was the effect of the eight escort F‐22s. The good thing about Red Air is that you are allowed to regenerate if you suffer a simulated kill.
So what happened? Well we advanced into the airspace about 40nm and were killed with no idea who or what had caused our demise. We regenerated and the next time only advanced 20nm. We regenerated a total of 5 times and only advanced a maximum of 40nm into the airspace; such was the dramatic superiority of a 5th generation aircraft.
Post flight I was then fortunate to view the engagement from the viewpoint of the F‐22 formation. The level of situational awareness was dramatically different. The F‐22 pilots had a complete gods‐eye view of the battle space and the differences between the benchmark 4th generation aircraft and a 5th generation aircraft were quite stark. It is this situational awareness that determines who wins and who losses in the fight for control of the air."
http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/Uplo...6_Jul_2012.pdf
"I had the opportunity to fly in an opposition Red Air F‐15D fitted with a sophisticated EW jamming capability. I was looking forward to being on the mission having been on the receiving end of “Red Air” over the years. However, instead of witnessing the normal attrition of a strike package I witnessed a demonstration of the superiority of the fifth generation aircraft.
What I didn’t account for was the effect of the eight escort F‐22s. The good thing about Red Air is that you are allowed to regenerate if you suffer a simulated kill.
So what happened? Well we advanced into the airspace about 40nm and were killed with no idea who or what had caused our demise. We regenerated and the next time only advanced 20nm. We regenerated a total of 5 times and only advanced a maximum of 40nm into the airspace; such was the dramatic superiority of a 5th generation aircraft.
Post flight I was then fortunate to view the engagement from the viewpoint of the F‐22 formation. The level of situational awareness was dramatically different. The F‐22 pilots had a complete gods‐eye view of the battle space and the differences between the benchmark 4th generation aircraft and a 5th generation aircraft were quite stark. It is this situational awareness that determines who wins and who losses in the fight for control of the air."
http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/Uplo...6_Jul_2012.pdf
Last edited by layman; 3rd Aug 2015 at 04:36. Reason: rubbish formatting
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Pentagon regrets.....
A bit of light entertainment. This comes from Duffle Blog this morning - Pentagon Regrets Taking Out Payday Loan for F-35